Ich

Lyghtning

New member
Hey Guys, I believe i have Ich, i'm not new to Ich it's been around my freshwater fish a few times. I'm about to start treatment, and for those of you who know him. I am working with Aquanis so he may see this thread, but i'm gathering general opinion.

Treat the fish with signs of Ich or treat them all?

Fish in question:
Two clowns, Coral Beauty, Powder Tang, Fowleri Tang, Mandarin.

If you choose treat them all, consider a mandarin within the set of fish in question. the QT tank has no rock/sand so copepods in that tank is not viable so it may starve. It is not on frozen yet.


I'm planning on treating all, how i'm going to handle the mandarin is so off i dont know how that's going to go.
If i dont treat the mandarin it may be hosting Ich and after treatment may just give it back to them... Grrr....

Opinions anyone?

Yes first response to tell me to QT before intro to my display tank, wins no awards! I know QT is now on the agenda before anything new enters my home!!!!
 
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Well i know ich sucks i lost 9 fish in the last couple of weeks. my last two died last night and this morning. there is a medication out there i have heard its the best on the market. i tired there others and nothing helped. i don't know the name its a small bottle and its reef safe. i think it cost around 40 or 50 bucks. Alot of through lfs know what its called and might have it or can get it. but if i was you i would jump on it before it gets out of hand.
 
What I would do and am doing just feed a little heavier and stay ontop of water changes and let nature run its course..mandarins have a heavy slime coat and more than Likely not develop ich
 
IMO and IME, the ONLY treatment for ich is either copper or hypo salinity in a hospital tank; everything else on the market I consider snake oil!

I share the belief of others with ich being in all tanks. In my own belief and IME, keeping stress down to an absolute minimum, water parameters good AND consistently stable is the the keys to keeping ich in check. And of course QT all livestock.

I don't know what to tell you in regards to the mandarin, but good luck!
 
This is a big mess.....
fish host ich ....
you have to treat all fish. and have to leave your DT fishless for a couple months.
if you WON'T qt. then just deal with it and hope for the best. fish can live with the pariste until they get to stressed ......
YOU NEED TO READ THE STICKIES
here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=87

if you want extra help PM me
 
Well i know ich sucks i lost 9 fish in the last couple of weeks. my last two died last night and this morning. there is a medication out there i have heard its the best on the market. i tired there others and nothing helped. i don't know the name its a small bottle and its reef safe. i think it cost around 40 or 50 bucks. Alot of through lfs know what its called and might have it or can get it. but if i was you i would jump on it before it gets out of hand.

I think the product you're referring to is Medic by Polyp Lab. I bought from Carlos and it is expensive. I can't honestly say if it works or not. I started using it after the first cycle of ich and, like others say, if you don't quarantine stay up on water changes and make sure the fish are feeding. Others have used it with good results but I don't know their circumstances.
 
I share the belief of others with ich being in all tanks. In my own belief and IME, keeping stress down to an absolute minimum, water parameters good AND consistently stable is the the keys to keeping ich in check. And of course QT all livestock.

I don't know what to tell you in regards to the mandarin, but good luck!


Yep. There are a few of us that share this opinion.


This is a big mess.....
fish host ich ....
you have to treat all fish. and have to leave your DT fishless for a couple months.
if you WON'T qt. then just deal with it and hope for the best. fish can live with the pariste until they get to stressed ......
YOU NEED TO READ THE STICKIES
here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=87

if you want extra help PM me


There are some good stickies at the link above.

Here is my 2 cents worth - IMO & IME...

A while back when I picked up some fish and QT'd them they ended up having ich. I used the tank transfer method to get rid of the ich since one of the fish was a Mandarin. There are some fish which can't handle some anti ich products. For this method I used 5 gallon buckets and water from the DT. You don't have the option to use DT water so you'd have to make the salt water for this method.

While doing the tank transfer method I used a separate bucket for the Mandarin and fed him Reef Stew.

The tank transfer method worked well. Signs of ich dissappeared after the first transfer. Be aware that you have to do the complete transfer process even though it looks like the ich is gone. There is a sticky covering this method. The tank transfer method process takes just over 2 weeks.

If you plan on QTing in the future now would be good time to put together a QT. You have about 2 weeks available to do this if you use the tank transfer method to get rid of the ich. When you finish the tank transfer method the QT should be ready.

Leaving your DT fallow with no fish in it for 90 days (read the sticky on this) will remove the ich in the DT. Then you can put your fish back in.

The other thing you can do is start using garlic when you feed. I use GarlicPower made by Brightwell but there are other garlic products out there. I put a few drops on the food and let it soak in. Then feed it to the fish. Garlic helps build their immune systems and parasites don't like it.
 
QT is up and water is cycling. I have plans for a QT for new arrivals.

So to answer some questions.
How long have i had all the fish. I have had all my fish 5 months+ except the new addition of the powder tang, and fowleri tang, the powder tang is the first to show signs.
I should have QT'd these two on entry but i smack my self now, and what is done is done.

I've been reading alot about the tank swap method and can see the logic of removing the tormonts. Which this also addresses the mandarin, because if i QT the mandarin with no Live rock or sand, and continue to feed reef stew, the ammonia will sky rocket. So with the tank switch method i can continually lower the ammonia without having to worry about how much i feed, making the fish hopefully less stressed with full bellies.

Although there is something to be said about medication, a parasite is a parasite and needs medication to some degree. Now in some circumstances, i believe like bugs that ich can be in all tanks and never really show itself, however it's still a parasite and parasites can be killed, so it is possible to have an ich free tank, but i think it's up to us to make sure that happens. Granted those who believe ich is in every tank may be right, unless the owner has killed the parasites. If the ich never shows, and never causes problem noone would know to treat it in the first place(making it entirely possible to be everywhere)

But still stands to reason, parasites can be killed, and before i start paying more than 300 for a single fish i'd like to rid it of parasites :P

The fish have lost all white sprinkles, so i know i'm in the tormont phase, which some say can be as quick as 78 hours, to as late as a month. So tonight might be the move, to QT for 3 days, see if they get more sprinkles and attempt tank swap method to start. see how it develops i beleive by the 21st day of tank swap if they show no signs i may medicate for a day or two just to make sure the tormonts are dead :)
 
I used cupramine on my fowlr then I used the cuprisorb to soak all of the left over Meds but I did not have coral or any inverts in the tank when I did this because it will kill all of them but I now have a lg blue carpet anemone a Seabee anemone and some coral in the tank and they are doing good I dunno what others think I was always told not use it in my dt but I didn't want to loose 2500 worth of fish
 
feed them like pigs, if your current fish have been stable/ healthy for at least a few months they should be alright, the new fish will more than likely kick the bucket.
Like I said just ensure your current fish are eating well and stress free. Also try not to disturb the substrate too much as it will cause an increase in numbers of free cysts, another thing often overlooked is efficient skimming, a good skimmer can help pull out a large amount of protozoa, which helps buffer the population of active cysts.
 
The following is from post #7 in this RC thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2259288&highlight=mandarin+medication


This so far has to be the best piece I have seen on this credit goes to leebca@reefland.com in 2006

Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans)

One of the marine aquarist's devils. So many articles have been written about it. Many are long or are in multiple parts. A lot is known about this marine fish disease because of the many $$$ put into research by the fish farming and aquaculture industries. First discovered (or the better word is 'noticed') in the 1800's and later more understood in the 1900's, we've learned about all there is to know about this parasite by the 2000's.

I don't want to write a long post on Marine Ich (MI) but the reader, in as brief of space as possible, should know some truths. The aquarist 'sees something' and then 'guesses' as to what it means and thus starts another round of rumors. It's almost a type of voodoo. It's easier to listen to a rumor of a short absolute statement then it is to read and understand the results of decades of studies and experiments. It is easier to try and take shortcuts with this disease by believing the parasite to be able or capable to do things or die from things it just can't, then it is to do the work to kill it, control it, or prevent it by the means that are known to work.

It's time to separate out the rumors from the facts and the subjective observations (which start rumors) from actual scientific studies. In bullet form, here's what is known:


Life and Visuals:

1, The parasite has several "หœstages' in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is "หœpregnant' with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.

2. Only time a human can see this parasite with the naked eye is when it is "หœpregnant' on the fish and has formed a white nodule. (The white spot about the size of a grain of table salt or sugar).

3. Parasites that have just burrowed into the fish are not visible until 2.

4. Cycle can be completed in less than 7 days, but usually within 24 days and can go as long as 72 days. Literature usually quotes "หœaverage' number of days. 72 days is rare; 60 days usually encompasses more than 99.9% of the observations and research. THIS is the reason why 8-weeks fallow time is given -- to include those parasites on or at the end of the cycle range. Remember: The reported and documented cycle time are averages of a range. When fighting this parasite times for treatment are given for the high end of the range not the average time. My philosophy is why risk only being 95% sure? Fallow times are given for over 99.9% success at killing this parasite, for instance. See 10. under Treatments.

5. This is not the same as the freshwater disease, Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) but it was named after it?!

6. MI is not very sensitive to temperature changes. That is, increasing the temperature does not significantly decrease the life cycle time. This is not true with Freshwater Ich (which is where this rumor of raising the temperature on a marine aquarium with MI comes from).

7. MI can live and reproduce in temperatures as low as 50F and as high as 90F. Thus temperatures that would kill MI would first kill or severely stress most tropical marine fishes.

8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!

9. Parasite likes infecting the fish's gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.

10. The parasite burrows into the fish, below the mucous layer and into the skin. (This is why cleaner fish/shrimp can't get to it in order to remove them from the fish). The second dumbest thing an aquarist can think: I'll get some cleaner fish or cleaner shrimp to remove/eat the parasite. THESE MARINE LIFE DO NOT EAT THE PARASITE NOR WILL FISH OR SHRIMP REMOVE THE PARASITE FROM THE INFECTED FISHES.

11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium.

12. The parasite can infect bony fishes, including eels, sharks, and rays, though many species of fish, like Mandarins, have a good resistance to MI, they can still be infected and can harbor or carry the parasite. Invertebrates, snails, crabs, corals, plants, etc. are not affected/infected by MI, but their water can carry them.

13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can't wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has "หœworn itself out' and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.


Treatments:

1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish.

2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. See: Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating.

3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

4. Only the above 3 known cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.

5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock (see: What is Live Rock, Anyway? and substrates with worms, etc.). Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment.

6. No known "หœreef-safe' remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It's easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the "หœreef-safe' remedy but they don't because. . .

7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).

8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).

9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.

10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success.

11. NEVER combine a copper treatment with a hyposalinity treatment. In hyposaline solutions, copper can be lethal to marine fishes.


Defense and Immunity:

1. The fish's mucous coating can provide some protection from the parasite. This is where immunity develops.

2. When water temperature drops, mucous coating is often reduced or lost in marine fishes, that is why sometimes MI becomes visible on the body of the fish after a sudden drop in temperature. This meant, however, that the disease was present and living in the aquarium, infecting fish without the aquarist having been aware of it.

3. No fish, no matter how good its defense is, can stop being infected. A healthy fish will and can be equally infected as a sick or stressed fish. What happens is the aquarists sees one or more fish with the disease and assumes because none are seen on the other fish in the aquarium that they are 'disease free.' NOT. Aquarists can't always see the parasites. See above top, 2., 3., and 9. All fish in an infected tank require treatment.

4. A weak, stressed, or sick fish will die sooner than a healthy fish, but is no more likely to get infected than the healthy fish.

5. A fish that survives an attack may develop proteins in the mucous coating that will help fend off the parasite (this is a type of immune response). An immune fish will not get infected. Unfortunately. . .(see 6. below). . .

6. An immune fish doesn't remain immune. Separated from the disease for months, the once immune fish can become MI infected.

7. Immunization seems to work, but not affordable or likely available to the hobby for many more decades. The immunization materials are hard to make, expensive, and slow to produce.


Subjective and Non-Subjective Observations, Claims, and Common Myths

1. Tangs seem more susceptible. True. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. They swim up to 25 miles a day in the ocean in search for food so maybe Mother Nature provided them with this as a means of 'escape.'

2. It goes away on its own. Untrue. Only visible at one stage IF it is on the body or fin of the fish. It's the life cycle. If it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist.

3. It goes away with a "หœreef-safe' remedy. Untrue. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it will kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can't be seen.

4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. Not true. See 3. It wasn't gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which causes the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, thus allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now visible to the aquarist.

5. The fish lived the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. Can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.

6. It was accurately diagnosed as MI spots, then never showed up again. It wasn't MI or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.

7. MI can "หœhang around' almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. True. So "หœit is gone' after "หœit was here' is very unlikely.

8. Aquariums always have MI. Untrue. MI can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish and don't let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium. After keeping thousands of marine fishes, my home aquariums have been free of MI since 1970.

9. Fish always have MI. Untrue. In the wild they often show up to 30% infected (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom.' In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.

10. Like 9. a fish can't be made to be totally rid of MI. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any MI infection.

11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Untrue. I compare this approach to this one: "Granny has pneumonia. Let's keep her home rather than take her to the hospital. We'll feed her well with chicken soup and vitamins -- and lots of garlic." Nutrition, foods, garlic, vitamins don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!

12. A new cure has been discovered. Unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!

13. If the MI can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the MI parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying MI parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist.

14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (why we don't know) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.

15. UV and/or Ozone kills MI. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Not all MI parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of MI. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for MI.

16. Spots are MI. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and myth-information in the hobby is assuming the spot is Marine Ich when it may be one of another few dozen other parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Marine Ich. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured MI, when the fish didn't have MI to start with.

PLEASE DON'T SPREAD RUMORS!
 
So to answer some questions.
How long have i had all the fish. I have had all my fish 5 months+ except the new addition of the powder tang, and fowleri tang, the powder tang is the first to show signs.

Ok, I was going to say something like this if they had all been in your tank for a while:
feed them like pigs, if your current fish have been stable/ healthy for at least a few months they should be alright ...

Since (1) they're new, (2) you're already setting up a qt, and (3) you're planning to qt everything else that comes in, you might as well try to rid them of ich.

Ich doesn't worry me as much as some other stuff that can come in on a new fish (e.g., worms, flukes, man/flesh-eating-pods) so if I were you, it would be a toss up. You know what the gold-standard/best practices are so no need to preach.

Best of luck and I hope the fish get better.
 
So how long should i wait before i restock my tank. i have been told to give it 60days before i even think about putting stock back into it. so i would like to hear what every one thinks.
 
Check out the stickies on this. I really doesn't matter what everyone thinks. It's a parasite. Learn about how it operates and go from there.
 
My experience.

I pulled the effected fish and put them in my 14g biocube with some copper. I put a UV sterilizer on the DT which still contained 2 fish with no signs of ich.

After two weeks there were no indications of ich in either tank. I acclimated the QTed fish and put them back in the DT. It's now been over a month and everything is looking great.

I had read that the UV sterilizer can reduce the water born parasites (not just ich) which can reduce overall stress. This helps to keep any parasites from getting out of control. Or so the research showed. LOL

Bob
 
When I got Ich, I kept the tank fallow for 108 days; longer than normal, but it worked, no Ich yet for the last 16 months.

When I started my 185 build about 12 months ago, I used all new dry rock and sand and a little seed piece of coralline covered rock from a friends well established reef, a complete new build - to further avoid Ich and other bad things. I used nothing from my recovered Ich tank just to be safe.
I've had a few unwanted things get in to the 185, even through my QT process, but nothing ominous like Ich, Velvet etc. Besides, for this tank, there is no getting the fish out to treat them in a HT as it is 38" deep with tall rock columns; what goes in there stays in there - kinda like a roach motel haha
 
Just a quick update.
I'm 5 fishies down :(
1 Royal gramma, it passed first and quickly
3 Anthias
Mocha Clown
and Kole eye tang :(

However, on a positive note, i have 9 left all in QT and taking medication well.
Purchased a new tank, not going to use anything from my current 2 tanks in the new tank.

The Mandarin is not showing signs of Ich, however it's still in my primary tank, I am not going to move it to QT until i can get the new tank up, get all the fish into new tank once they have gone through full spectrum medication(New tank way to large to get fish out once they go in).

When everything is moved, and i can put copepods into the QT and get ready to transfer the mandarin to QT, and get all out of the current two tanks.

Definately stressful week with lots of water changes on QT, but
Folweri Tang
Coral beauty
Two additional clowns
Flame hawk
two chromis
All look like they are at least with each cycle dropping in salt specks per cycle...

We wait and see.....
 
Are you sure it's Ich and not Brooklynella?

Ich usually isn't fatal if caught and treated. Brooklynella can wipe out a tank in a week. It took all but 2 fish from my tank in a week. By the time I figured out what it was 5 fish were dead.

The early stages of Brooklynella look like Ich but then it starts looking like a coating is peeling off the fish. At that stage it is usually too late to save the fish. My mandarin never showed any signs, but he was found dead one morning.

Good luck

Bob
 

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