Immediate Relief for Ich While Treatment Ensues?

[Musing.Dog]

My two royal grammas have been in quarantine for about a week. A day or so ago the QT had an ammonia spike that I nipped quickly with Amquel. The source of ammonia has been fixed as well. Of course, I can't test with the Amquel in the water though. Very quickly after the spike (over night) both fish are coated in white specks of Ich. Previous to these days the fish occasionally flashed but I saw no spots. Now all they do is flash and lay still. I feel pretty bad for them.
I plan to treat with the transfer method as soon as possible. So far I have added an aerator to the QT to help them breathe a little better.

Is there anything else I can do to temporarily relieve them while the long process starts? I am reading that freshwater dips can provide some relief. Is this advisable? The fish seem pretty weak today. I wouldn't want to put them through more stress if it won't help. If so, how long a dip?

Again, I feel terrible for them but at least they were in the quarantine tank. They weren't eating a whole lot before this either. Today they are not interested in food at all.

I am sure these questions get asked a lot. I read the stickies concerning quarantine practice, treatment methods and disease identification but I didn't see much on short-term relief.

 

[b0bab0ey]

IMO the whole f/w dip thing is a double edged sword. Yes, it can/does provide some immediate relief for parasites. But at what cost? When you think about the stress incurred by having to catch the fish, put them in f/w, etc. Your best bet would be to start copper/hypo/tank transfer ASAP.

 

[Musing.Dog]

Thanks for your quick response. I don't think they would tolerate it well. I picked up the extra qt tank today and have started mixing water. I plan to switch them to the new one in the morning.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Thanks for your quick response. I don't think they would tolerate it well. I picked up the extra qt tank today and have started mixing water. I plan to switch them to the new one in the morning.

:thumbsup:

 

[MrTuskfish]

A dip might help a little with ich in the gills (although I doubt it) . The white spots are not the actual ich parasite, its buried well under the skin and you can't do anything to help with it. ( BTW, a stick-on ammonia badge will read free-ammonia that hasn't been neutralized by the Amquel. Standard ammonia tests, like API, will not. Do not use copper with Amquel, or other dechlorinators, very dangerous forms of copper result. Let us know if you're going to use copper, hypo, or tank-transfer to cure the ich. there are lots of little ways we may be able to help. Also, have these grammas been in your DT or exposed to other fish? I don't get the need for a 2nd QT.

 

[Musing.Dog]

I understand that the spots aren't the actual parasite. I didn't figure there was much to be done but I just wanted to make sure. Both were dead this morning though.

I had a stick on ammonia badge which never registered any ammonia. I purchased it around August of this year from Dr.Fosters. I decided that it wasn't working since the fish seemed nervous and my API test detected ammonia. It looked like 0.25 to me but could have been between that and 0.50.

I read the sticky about Amquel interactions with copper. The grammas were never put in the display tank and were not exposed to any other fish outside of those at the LFS. I don't have any other fish actually. These were my first.

I was considering using the transfer method outlined in the stickies which employ a second tank. The fish are transferred between tanks every three days while the unused tank dries, killing the accompanying parasite. (I am in the middle of putting together a 65 for the contents of my 20 so the extra 10 gallon tank will be useful).

Thanks for the response MrTuskfish. I'd wager that the ammonia spike was larger or present longer than I was aware of. I believe that is what did them in and the ich was an opportunistic add-on. Their conditions deteriorated rapidly and the Amquel didn't seem to help.

I would purchase another stick on badge but, how do I know it's going to keep working? I think it might be better to just test frequently.

I really appreciate the help. I have been feeling awfully guilty about this situation and I am a little discouraged.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry about the loss. Don't get too discouraged; almost every hobbyist has gone through the ich battle. Once you have a system to handle these little monsters, ich just doesn't need to be a big deal. It isn't with me, and I have a ton of fish. IMO & IME; the secret to treating and preventing ich is to assume fish will come home with it and be prepared. I favor prophylactic treatment of most fish with copper. I know that is controversial, and am not pushing the practice. But, many hobbyists handle all new fish this way; Cupramine copper, when used properly, is very safe, easy, and effective. Again; IMO & IME. that's your call. Hypo or tank-transfer are also good preventative methods. You certainly don't have to treat fish before seeing parasites; that's just food for thought.

On the ammonia subject; this doesn't have to be a concern in a HT/QT if you're ready with a cycled tank. here's a copy of something I've posted many times. I consider it almost 100% certain to prevent an ammonia problem when you have ich, or other problems, to worry about:

"In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a big sponge and last forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge and keep a new one ready in your main system.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter. A big, air-driven sponge filter will work too, but I really prefer the Aqua-Clear. "

 

[Musing.Dog]

Thanks, I can see why prophylactic treatment is popular.
I had an aquaclear filter on the QT that had been running on the display since the beginning of August prior to placing it on the QT. The issue was a source of ammonia that I added without thinking.
I'm glad to know though that copper doesn't kill biofilters. This is useful knowledge. I think I am definitely more prepared for next time. I have started breaking the QT down to be dried.

 

[MuffsAbby]

I'm sorry you lost your fish.

I would purchase another stick on badge but, how do I know it's going to keep working? I think it might be better to just test frequently.

You can often get a different reading from the badge and an API test, because they're not measuring the same thing. Ammonia has two forms: free ammonia (which is toxic) and ammonium (non-toxic). The API test measures total ammonia (free ammonia plus ammonium), whereas the Seachem badge only measures free ammonia (the toxic kind).

Amquel renders ammonia harmless by turning free (toxic) ammonia into ammonium (harmless). But, after using Amquel, the API test will still show the presence of ammonia, because API measures total ammonia. On the other hand, the badge won't register, because there's no longer any free ammonia present. If you prefer not to rely on the badge, you can test for free ammonia, but you would need to use the Seachem free ammonia test (or another test kit that measures free ammonia only).

 

[Musing.Dog]

The badge never reported any ammonia, before the Amquel. I tested for ammonia before the addition of Amquel then dosed accordingly after the positive reading.
I don't feel that the badges can be relied on anyhow as I have I used this product more than once and found badges that quit working in a couple months.