Issues

[mcfa2403]

So I posted this in the reef chemistry forum but figured I would copy it over here to see what people thought:

After watching my corals for months I realized something is significantly limiting corals in my tank. Colors are good and the health of most of my corals is there but some corals are significantly struggling and growth isn't what it should be.

The tank is 48" x 20" x 18" lit by 2 kessil A350 on the sides and a Hydra 52 all lifted ~15" from the water surface. Acropora in the center of the tank lower light species on the sides. The tank has a moderate-high bioload and is a mixed reef with roughly equal parts LPS (mostly euphyllia) to SPS (mostly Acropora). Coloration is there in the Acropora so I doubt it is a lighting issue. Flow is powered by MP40 and Tunze nano turbelle and 750gph from the return and appears to be more than enough. Polyp extension is great on all acros.

Parameters:
Salinity 35ppt - Milwaukee Digital Refractometer
Nitrates stay between 5 and 10 ppm - Salifert
Phosphates < .3 ppm - Salifert
Alkalinity 9.6-10 dKH - Salifert
Calcium 430-440 ppm - Salifert
Magnesium 1320-1350 ppm - Salifert
pH 7.7-7.9 - Salifert

Dosing method is the Tropic Marin 3 part dosing powder injected via Bubble Magus T11. I have the pumps set to dose based on the recommended Tropic Marin ratios and use alkalinity as my baseline for maintenance. Without dosing Alk drops ~.8 dKH per 24 hours so I assume growth is occurring but based on what it could be it feels off.

Of other note the only montipora I have success with is a Jason Fox Mystic sunset (not sure which species this is) which has grown exponentially, my montipora Caps look healthy and exhibit great polyp extension but haven't even come close to doubling in size in over a year, and plating species as well as digitata slowly turn grey and struggle. Birdsnest will form multiple growth tips and look to grow but slowly succumb to STN. Chalices seem to be hit or miss but I assume that could be tank conditions, the same is true of acans.

With about 60lbs worth of dog, myself and my wife (we spend about 12 hours apiece physically in the apartment each day) in a 1200 sq ft apartment I assume that excess CO2 is some of the issue. When I left a sample outside for 3 hours before testing it test .3 points higher (about 8). I am trying to get a hold of a probe to get a more accurate test.

I do attempt to leave windows open for a few hours every week but with yappy dogs in an apartment (thanks wife) this is hard to do. I would rather not mess with try to run a hose from the skimmer to the window for several reasons. I have used kalkwasser in the past but for me it is difficult to manage as my tank is rimless with a high surface area and my sump has a 36" x 18" surface area so topping off with kalkwasser has been difficult to stabilize (plus makes the dosing system much more difficult). I know this is me being difficult here but wasn't sure if there was another way (I already run my calc/alk higher than most but would be willing to push higher if reccomended).

I was hoping perhaps you could shed some light on to the issue as perhaps it is not even a pH issue.

Extra info:
Skimmer is reef octopus 150SSS
I have discontinued running carbon in my tank (results are the same)
Skimmer and dosing pump are the only equipment I run
Total Water Volume is 75 gallons +/- 2 gallons (calculated using salinity)
No stray voltage present
Corals seem to periodically go through rapid growth phases and then stop

 

[mcfa2403]

These first few images show where things seem to be going well...

But these images are where there are issues:

In this one my "pseudo Red Planet" has grown over its plug but hasn't shown any noticeable growth in a month now, this is the second time this has occurred in the 5 months I have had it. (The rock is white having come from my sump, growth stopped a month before moving it this week)

After months of slow decline I have finally moved this digitata out of my tank to somewhere it can recover.

I had this montipora cap before I switched tanks over, so it is now going on 2 years now. Its current approximate size is 3" x 2", when I purchased it the size was about 1.5" x 1" far and away the slowest growing coral in my tank.

My growth rate of Euphyllia is about 4-6 new heads per 10 every 4 months (varies over different periods and species).

I know some people will indicate my slightly elevated nutrient levels as the culprit but if it were I doubt montipora would be the chief coral suffering, especially considering the number of wild acros I have successfully acclimated to my tank.

Also of note, I have had two BTAs split in the last month and a half.

 

[Pittsburgh]

I would start by looking at these two:

Nitrates stay between 5 and 10 ppm - Salifert
Phosphates < .3 ppm - Salifert

I can imagine that these two parameters are pretty good for LPS growth, but SPS (especially acros) need the water to be somewhat cleaner to grow faster.

 

[mcfa2403]

Irony here is most of my Acros do really well. I also spent 3 months running those parameters at 0 or very near 0 and the only difference I saw was less polyp extension.

I appreciate the suggestion though! I might even try it again and go longer this time as 3 months might not have been long enough. I made a couple changes to the tank a few weeks back and want to see what effects they have before making any other significant changes (want to be able to pinpoint the issue). My goal here being to see what my next test method should be here in a month or two and I figure the sooner I start collecting info the more informed I will be when I'm ready to test the next change.

 

[Pittsburgh]

Well, the best acro growth I get is with No3 < 2ppm and PO4 < .05, consistently for at least a couple of months. I run biopellets and GFO. Once I start slacking on GFO replacement schedule and my PO4 gets over .1, acros slow down in growth and LPS start taking over fast...

If I had PO4 at < .3, I'd have already paid for it with some of my more delicate acros. My montiporas seem to be handling higher PO4 levels a little better than acros.

 

[kevin_e]

Can't imagine phosphates or nitrate being an issues. Coloration is great and there is no algae that I can see.

How long in "months"? Often times new acropora can sit almost dormant like before growing and/or take months to a ear growing a base before growing significantly upward or outward.

I would suggest taking pictures every couple of weeks and compare photos, it's about the only way you can tell growth in SPS unless they have white growth tips (i.e. millepora) when you look at the tank every day.

I would guess that growth is better than you think. As to the pH being an is issue in an apartment from CO2 , it's possible, but I too live in a 1300 sq ft apartment with a 70 pound dog and 450 pounds of people without issues.

 

[kevin_e]

Irony here is most of my Acros do really well. I also spent 3 months running those parameters at 0 or very near 0 and the only difference I saw was less polyp extension.

I appreciate the suggestion though! I might even try it again and go longer this time as 3 months might not have been long enough. I made a couple changes to the tank a few weeks back and want to see what effects they have before making any other significant changes (want to be able to pinpoint the issue). My goal here being to see what my next test method should be here in a month or two and I figure the sooner I start collecting info the more informed I will be when I'm ready to test the next change.

I wouldn't mess with the nutrients and I certainly wouldn't keep them at zero, you will just lose color and light stress your corals in my experience. Your colors and coral look very very healthy.

 

[ReefBum]

Can't imagine phosphates or nitrate being an issues. Coloration is great and there is no algae that I can see.

How long in "months"? Often times new acropora can sit almost dormant like before growing and/or take months to a ear growing a base before growing significantly upward or outward.

I would suggest taking pictures every couple of weeks and compare photos, it's about the only way you can tell growth in SPS unless they have white growth tips (i.e. millepora) when you look at the tank every day.

I would guess that growth is better than you think. As to the pH being an is issue in an apartment from CO2 , it's possible, but I too live in a 1300 sq ft apartment with a 70 pound dog and 450 pounds of people without issues.

Agree that you need patience with certain SPS. Overall, the tank looks great. I also agree about keeping nitrates a bit lower. What is your water changing routine?

 

[mcfa2403]

I do 40 gallons a month, usually 10 gallons every Thursday sometimes missing a week and following up with a 20 gallon the next week (not ideal but sometimes things come up). I recently replaced my refugium with an 8x8x4 marinepure block (no significant change in pH... makes me invest more into kevin-e's point about pH in his apartment) to see if that helps bring nitrates down a little lower. Also reduced fish frozen feedings while maintaining pellet and oysterfeast/rotifeast feedings.

I am also contemplating a few other changes to the system:
Switching to 2 of the new QD mp40s and a vectra return pump (wont affect nitrates but might help with flow)
Going to a larger skimmer (looking at a lifereef)
Switching out the hydra 52 for 2 radions (keeping the kessil for supplemental will turn all lights down accordingly, wont affect nitrates but I would like to use a reeflink to control everything)

Thanks for the adviceand encouragement! I will be more patient with the acros, and I guess for now stay away from adding new monti's until I notice improvement on the cap. Thanks for the compliment reefbum, you saying it overall looks good is a huge compliment considering the source.

 

[ReefBum]

I do 40 gallons a month, usually 10 gallons every Thursday sometimes missing a week and following up with a 20 gallon the next week (not ideal but sometimes things come up). I recently replaced my refugium with an 8x8x4 marinepure block (no significant change in pH... makes me invest more into kevin-e's point about pH in his apartment) to see if that helps bring nitrates down a little lower. Also reduced fish frozen feedings while maintaining pellet and oysterfeast/rotifeast feedings.

I am also contemplating a few other changes to the system:
Switching to 2 of the new QD mp40s and a vectra return pump (wont affect nitrates but might help with flow)
Going to a larger skimmer (looking at a lifereef)
Switching out the hydra 52 for 2 radions (keeping the kessil for supplemental will turn all lights down accordingly, wont affect nitrates but I would like to use a reeflink to control everything)

Thanks for the adviceand encouragement! I will be more patient with the acros, and I guess for now stay away from adding new monti's until I notice improvement on the cap. Thanks for the compliment reefbum, you saying it overall looks good is a huge compliment considering the source.

You are welcome! The urge for instant gratification in this hobby can sometimes get in the way so it is better to think of the reef keeping journey as more of a marathon instead of a sprint.

 

[Tigerdragon]

To me yes ph is low any way you can a fresh air tube from skimmer to outside? Might even look at a co2 scrubber. To me the po4 and no3 are a bit high i would run po4 at .03-.05 and no3 around 5

 

[mcfa2403]

I made an error, I couldn't figure out why people were questioning my phosphates but it is because it should read that they are less than 0.03 not 0.3. Sorry for the confusion!

I am starting to look at the co2 scrubber as I was not aware of this piece of equipment

 

[Pife]

I've had tanks where some corals just wouldn't grow. I've not been able to explain it. I have found red planet to encrust first then really take off.

 

[kevin_e]

I made an error, I couldn't figure out why people were questioning my phosphates but it is because it should read that they are less than 0.03 not 0.3. Sorry for the confusion!

I am starting to look at the co2 scrubber as I was not aware of this piece of equipment

I figured something was off. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't mess with your nutrients. You colors look great and you have no algae. Take pictures every few weeks and compare, I bet growth is noticeable then.

 

[nemodan]

I've had tanks where some corals just wouldn't grow. I've not been able to explain it. I have found red planet to encrust first then really take off.

+1

Your tank looks OK. Could be those corals just do not adapt to your tank conditions, but 95% of what you have is doing well. I will not touch anything.

Just let it go. Keep consistency. Those other Acros looks good in your pictures. Don't ruin them changing your tank parameters.

Just my though. ......

 

[ocrass20]

So I posted this in the reef chemistry forum but figured I would copy it over here to see what people thought:

After watching my corals for months I realized something is significantly limiting corals in my tank. Colors are good and the health of most of my corals is there but some corals are significantly struggling and growth isn't what it should be.

The tank is 48" x 20" x 18" lit by 2 kessil A350 on the sides and a Hydra 52 all lifted ~15" from the water surface. Acropora in the center of the tank lower light species on the sides. The tank has a moderate-high bioload and is a mixed reef with roughly equal parts LPS (mostly euphyllia) to SPS (mostly Acropora). Coloration is there in the Acropora so I doubt it is a lighting issue. Flow is powered by MP40 and Tunze nano turbelle and 750gph from the return and appears to be more than enough. Polyp extension is great on all acros.

Parameters:
Salinity 35ppt - Milwaukee Digital Refractometer
Nitrates stay between 5 and 10 ppm - Salifert
Phosphates < .3 ppm - Salifert
Alkalinity 9.6-10 dKH - Salifert
Calcium 430-440 ppm - Salifert
Magnesium 1320-1350 ppm - Salifert
pH 7.7-7.9 - Salifert

Dosing method is the Tropic Marin 3 part dosing powder injected via Bubble Magus T11. I have the pumps set to dose based on the recommended Tropic Marin ratios and use alkalinity as my baseline for maintenance. Without dosing Alk drops ~.8 dKH per 24 hours so I assume growth is occurring but based on what it could be it feels off.

Of other note the only montipora I have success with is a Jason Fox Mystic sunset (not sure which species this is) which has grown exponentially, my montipora Caps look healthy and exhibit great polyp extension but haven't even come close to doubling in size in over a year, and plating species as well as digitata slowly turn grey and struggle. Birdsnest will form multiple growth tips and look to grow but slowly succumb to STN. Chalices seem to be hit or miss but I assume that could be tank conditions, the same is true of acans.

With about 60lbs worth of dog, myself and my wife (we spend about 12 hours apiece physically in the apartment each day) in a 1200 sq ft apartment I assume that excess CO2 is some of the issue. When I left a sample outside for 3 hours before testing it test .3 points higher (about 8). I am trying to get a hold of a probe to get a more accurate test.

I do attempt to leave windows open for a few hours every week but with yappy dogs in an apartment (thanks wife) this is hard to do. I would rather not mess with try to run a hose from the skimmer to the window for several reasons. I have used kalkwasser in the past but for me it is difficult to manage as my tank is rimless with a high surface area and my sump has a 36" x 18" surface area so topping off with kalkwasser has been difficult to stabilize (plus makes the dosing system much more difficult). I know this is me being difficult here but wasn't sure if there was another way (I already run my calc/alk higher than most but would be willing to push higher if reccomended).

I was hoping perhaps you could shed some light on to the issue as perhaps it is not even a pH issue.

Extra info:
Skimmer is reef octopus 150SSS
I have discontinued running carbon in my tank (results are the same)
Skimmer and dosing pump are the only equipment I run
Total Water Volume is 75 gallons +/- 2 gallons (calculated using salinity)
No stray voltage present
Corals seem to periodically go through rapid growth phases and then stop

Maybe Ph you should incresse to 8, 2