Large Beginner Tanks - The Right Way

SonsOfLeda

New member
Hey everyone! :wave:

I'm in the very beginning stages of putting together my first reef tank. I came across one of Jon's (hahnmeister's) old posts - see here - and it got me thinking (and hopefully you too).

The more and more I think about it, the more appealing a 180G reef-ready setup sounds. It's not so big that it turns into as much of an engineering project as an aquarium project, and it's not so small that I will be craving a larger, more show-quality setup in the near future.

If you were starting all over again, and had a reef-ready 180G as your empty canvas, how would you proceed?

With the ever-present possibility of future upgrades (since you're just starting out and will definitely get hooked), how would you future-proof your components?

Thanks for your advice in advance! I am absolutely looking to get/use as much of it as I can get!

- Eric :cool:
 
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Great questions! I have just purchased a 180G and now am in the process of planning a setup that will be "future versatile."

I don't have a lot of answers, so am mostly tagging along for the ride, but here is a couple of things I was thinking about.

I was lucky that mine came pre-drilled for a closed loop. In my opinion, having this option takes some stress off of water movement (if done correctly). I know a lot of people have had great success with wavemakers and the such, but the closed loop can be constructed where I can change out pumps if I need more flow in the future.

Lighting is a concern, so i am going to bring the most light I can to my system. I don't want to worry about 250W being enough and then change to a later date to a higher wattage and spend more dough on ballasts/retrokits/etc. So 400W here I come. Overhangs, and depth placement should work for lower-light loving creatures.

All pumps will be constructed with ball valves on each side for quick and easy cleaning, replacement or upgrades.

The protein skimmer is another area that I stress about. I hear two schools of thought: buy as big as you can go, or buy one who flow rate is equivalent to the flow rate of the sump. I know it depends on things like bioload and etc, but I am still researching.

Anyway, I feel like I've gone on long enough. I am still planning, and nothing is set in stone. Subscribing, and eagerly wait to see your thoughts as well.
 
Thanks for starting the thread! I thought that rather than respond through PM to SonsOfLeda's PM asking about the 'list', that making a thread here would be the best for everyone... since Im sure you aren't the only one who would find this topic interesting or who is asking the same question... and thats what a forum is all about!

That list is still good for the most part... I'll note the exceptions here:

"Here would be my list for a 180-240g...
1. Tank, center back overflow with dual 1" drains, and a single 3/4" return.
2. Stand & Canopy of your choice
3. 3-4x 250watt double ended Metal Halides with 10,000K bulbs (Lumenarc DE reflectors and PFO HQI ballasts)
4. 8x 54watt T5 retrofit with Icecap SLR reflector upgrade. 4x ATI blue+ bulbs, 4x UVL Super Actinic bulbs.
5. Tunze Streams: 4x6100s with multicontroller.
6. 3x Ebo Jager 250watt heaters
7. 75g All-Glass tank with a 1/2" glass baffle in the middle for the sump.
8. Eheim 1260 return pump
9. Deltec PF601 calcium reactor
10. ATI Bubblemaster 250 protein skimmer
11. Tunze Osmolator Top-off system, a 5gallon bucket, and the KENT Hi-S Maxxima Deluze RO/DI system
12. Extra 75g tub/aquarium for mixing fresh saltwater, a Mag7 pump for mixing, and an extra EBO 250watt heater.
13. 180-250 lbs of Marshall Island Live Rock.
14. Clean-Up crew: No hermits. 100x astrae snails, 40x nerite snails, 20x super tongan nassarius, 10x peppermint shrimp.
15. add fish and corals after a month or two of cycling."

1. note: the dual overflow pipes in a single overflow box are to facilitate a 'herbie' style overflow. I believe this is the best system out there for noise, salt spray, and bubble reduction in an overflow.

3/4. note on Halides vs. T5s vs. Both: Im loving the T5s these days. If it were me, would do a 9x5' bulb retrofit using Icecap 660's. Thats 900 watts of T5 goodness that I dont think you can match as far as coral pigmentation with halides, and with similar light field intensity, growth should be just the same per watt as halides.

5. Get two 6200/6205's rather than four of the smaller ones.

6. Reliability is always a concern. Perhaps the 'starter' package should have its level raised to reflect the concern... a ranco controller is a good idea.

9. I do like those Deltecs, but there is no logical reason why one from a host of other makers wouldnt serve you just as well... GEO, Korallin, ATB, H&S, Warner Marine (why doesn't Royal Exclusiv make one yet?)... you name it. The big things to look for are a quiet and cool running pump (usually eheim) so calcium doesnt build up on the impeller from heat, easy clean/fill, a probe holder, and efficient/regenerative CO2 use (one example is the Schuran 'bell' which collects excess CO2 and then sends it back through the pump rather than just sitting there).

10. Ive been issued 'gag orders' on this one, but even if it weren't for that, I would simply be giving you a list of high-efficiency protein skimmers, usually based on eheim, Sicce, or Laguna motors with bubble plates coming from the EU or Clones of those coming from China.

13. I would save the money on Marshall (its crazy expensive)... Perhaps 100lbs of a similar style of LR (skip the Florida & Fiji farmed crap, you can farm your own) like Tonga... dont skimp... get the most life encrusted, dirty stuff right off the boat that you can. Then fill in the other 100-150 lbs with Marco Rocks or Eco Rocks... dry rocks that are very cool looking (I love those Marco 'shelf' pieces). Drill them with a 1/2" ceramic bit, stack them up on 3/8" PVC rod tapped & threaded into 1/4" acrylic base plates for support, and you can make pillars and arches that regular rock on its own cant match.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13467368#post13467368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
3/4. note on Halides vs. T5s vs. Both: Im loving the T5s these days. If it were me, would do a 9x5' bulb retrofit using Icecap 660's. Thats 900 watts of T5 goodness that I dont think you can match as far as coral pigmentation with halides, and with similar light field intensity, growth should be just the same per watt as halides.
So you'd go with something similar to the following then: 60" 8x80W SLR T5 VHO Retrofit? Still with the same 4x ATI Blue+ and 4x UVL Super Actinics, or would you go with a different combination since the halides were removed? What's your opinion on the Current-USA Outer Orbit HQI/T5HO fixtures (specifically the 1079, which includes 3x250W halides, 8xT5HO Actinics and a couple dozen LEDs for lunar lighting)?
5. Get two 6200/6205's rather than four of the smaller ones.
Expensive little buggers, aren't they? Since they're so new, I guess that's always going to be the case. I'm actually looking at integrating a closed loop with an OM 4-way. Would you still do stream pumps in addition to the CL, or is it a one or the other situation? If I do go with the streams, I'm certainly glad I picked up an AC Jr to save a bit as far as control goes over these guys goes.
6. Reliability is always a concern. Perhaps the 'starter' package should have its level raised to reflect the concern... a ranco controller is a good idea.
Or, as I mentioned above, the AC Jr to make sure all heaters are on or off simultaneously. Are there any benefits of a Ranco vs the AC Jr method? I agree though - reliability in temp control is a must.
9. I do like those Deltecs, but there is no logical reason why one from a host of other makers wouldnt serve you just as well... GEO, Korallin, ATB, H&S, Warner Marine (why doesn't Royal Exclusiv make one yet?)... you name it. The big things to look for are a quiet and cool running pump (usually eheim) so calcium doesnt build up on the impeller from heat, easy clean/fill, a probe holder, and efficient/regenerative CO2 use (one example is the Schuran 'bell' which collects excess CO2 and then sends it back through the pump rather than just sitting there).
This is starting to get into the areas that I'm out of my element in. Definitely going to do my homework here and see where it takes me...
10. Ive been issued 'gag orders' on this one, but even if it weren't for that, I would simply be giving you a list of high-efficiency protein skimmers, usually based on eheim, Sicce, or Laguna motors with bubble plates coming from the EU or Clones of those coming from China.
Oooh... gag orders! Official, or just because the skimmer debate's been overdone? Again, though, an area that's pretty new to me, thus requiring more homework. The one thing I do know is that if I'm going to skimp in any area, this is definitely not the place to do it.
13. I would save the money on Marshall (its crazy expensive)... Perhaps 100lbs of a similar style of LR (skip the Florida & Fiji farmed crap, you can farm your own) like Tonga... dont skimp... get the most life encrusted, dirty stuff right off the boat that you can. Then fill in the other 100-150 lbs with Marco Rocks or Eco Rocks... dry rocks that are very cool looking (I love those Marco 'shelf' pieces). Drill them with a 1/2" ceramic bit, stack them up on 3/8" PVC rod tapped & threaded into 1/4" acrylic base plates for support, and you can make pillars and arches that regular rock on its own cant match.
Now you're talking about the fun stuff! I love aquascaping and such, and am pretty anal about it (that's a good thing, right?). Good recommendations though - I love the "right off the boat" analogy. I also picked up a magazine that featured PVC framing in one of the articles, so I've gotten to look at that part of it.

I'd also love to hear your thoughts as far as substrate goes. I've done a bit of research already, and I'm leaning towards a DSB, but I'm wondering if that's really the way to go for a beginner, or if one should go the way of the normal SB (BB is just odd to me) and have a DSB in a refugium if desired - especially when trying to go with a high-flow CL system that I'm thinking about.

Thanks again for your input. One can never have too much information when just starting out. I'm just trying to do my best sponge impression and take as much in as I possibly can right now.

Anyone else have any input?

- Eric :cool:
 
On T5s vs. Halides, I'm with Hahn on that, definitely T5s, although I would suggest a non-overdriven (the icecaps are overdriven, meaning an 80w bulb actually pulls 100w), higher end T5 lighting unit, such as an ATI, Geisemann, or Sfiligoi. unfortunately Geisemann and Sfiligoi are the only ones making 5 ft. units right now. The reason I suggest the non-overdriven units is that they prolong bulb life, consume less power, while still providing more than enough PAR. An 8x80w will run you about $1300, so they are slightly more expensive, and that is a drawback, but over the course of a few years, you'll make your money back in bulb cost.

Also a suggestion in general is that 6 ft. tanks are just more difficult to light. Marineland now has tanks that are 3' wide, so your 180g is 4'x3' and your 250g is 5'x3'. IMO either of these are preferable to a 6'x2'. With the extra width you can keep any fish (i.e. tang) in these tanks without a problem, they are much easier to light, and more importantly, they open up many more aquascaping possibilities.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13467671#post13467671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SonsOfLeda

Oooh... gag orders! Official, or just because the skimmer debate's been overdone? Again, though, an area that's pretty new to me, thus requiring more homework. The one thing I do know is that if I'm going to skimp in any area, this is definitely not the place to do it.

Not really sure what his "gag" orders are, but I think he is referring to the ATB conical skimmers. I have been following some of the threads here and over at the zeo forums and it looks like these guys are outperforming Bubble Kings and the like.
 
As for flow, you may also want to consider looking at the Vortech's. The in tank footprint and flexibility with the controller is nice. Price wise they are in the same ballpark as the Tunze's. Keep in mind, this is just my research and not my experience.

I would also like to comment on the closed loops. I was a fan of closed loops at one point, but these days I am against them. They add disaster risk to your tank. I ended up tearing mine out one night because one of my 10 ball-valves got stuck, of course I did not know this until I had water flowing out of my pump because of a break. In addition, the pumps tend to be inefficient as compared to tunze/vortech's, and add unneeded heat to the tank. Just imagine if your feed side broke, you would have a considerable amount of water on the floor.
 
I know Han can't say it, but hes referring (as stated above) to the ATB Skimmers. I did my due diligence for my 600 gal tank/1k system and it ended up where an ATB large was the best choice for me. Skimmers are a very personal choice and there is no one size fits all for a large tank. Do some research, talk to people that own the units, then make a decision.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13468727#post13468727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Husky_1
As for flow, you may also want to consider looking at the Vortech's. The in tank footprint and flexibility with the controller is nice. Price wise they are in the same ballpark as the Tunze's. Keep in mind, this is just my research and not my experience.

I would also like to comment on the closed loops. I was a fan of closed loops at one point, but these days I am against them. They add disaster risk to your tank. I ended up tearing mine out one night because one of my 10 ball-valves got stuck, of course I did not know this until I had water flowing out of my pump because of a break. In addition, the pumps tend to be inefficient as compared to tunze/vortech's, and add unneeded heat to the tank. Just imagine if your feed side broke, you would have a considerable amount of water on the floor.

Ditto on this. For a beginner especially, Vortechs or Tunzes are much easier to set up than a closed loop. They also are more adjustable, so require less planning ahead. When you haven't had experience, predicting where to place outputs of a CL is tough, so having a vortech you can move around wherever you like is a plus.

Also, in regards to your question on bulb combo - I would definitely change it up with no MH. I'd suggest

UVL Actinic
ATI Blue Plus (interchangable Geisseman Actinic+)
ATI Aquablue Special
Blue PLus
Fiji Purple
UVL Actinic
ATI Aquablue Special
Blue Plus
 
Even without the 'gag orders' (I dont mean to demonize RC, its just what I call them, and referring to them doesnt imply any brand in particular), I think that the reason they even exist nullifies my personal opinion's substance as far as 3rd parties are concerned, so I dont really even bother (something I have been open about). Having other owners testify with their own experiences could be assumed a more 'credible' and 'unbiased' means of forming an opinion than anything I could provide then, so I really dont have to say anything. That being said, I never suggested only one brand... and thats what does 'irk' me a bit. There are a few really good ones out there depending on what you want to spend and all. Thats about all I have to say about that.
When someone close to me asks 'Hey, would it be okay if I got this brand instead of this other one?', I rarely say no. Skimmers have existed and been functional for a very long time. I dont care if its 20 years old... if it works, it works.

3/4: I like the 8 bulb retro, but each IC660 can run 3 bulbs, so why not (unless your reflectors are too thick)? Its not a massive overdrive either... 3' and 4' bulbs get overdriven by a hefty amount, but 5' bulbs only get overdriven by something like 6%... as long as you keep the bulbs cool (something you should do anyways), I dont see this as a major 'bulb killer'. Keep in mind that an 80 watt ballast is really something over 90 watts at the plug... so being driven at 100 watts isnt as much of an overdrive.

You can go with 'stock' ballasts... 1x80's... I would say that your goal should be something like 800-900 watts of T5s for a 180. Sure, there are people who 'get away' with less, but they tend to grow their plate montis at the top, and they dont get the same growth as with more light... I think it might have to do something with some SPS that seem to fade as well. I have always run the same wattage T5 as with halide... if I replace a 250watt halide on a tank with T5s, I try to keep it at about 250 watts (or rather, I use the wattage at the outlet, so 275 watts (e-ballast) or 320 watts (HQI/M80). I have never had a problem with faded colors or reds/yellows/ pinks that looked chalky, and I run a very blue assortment of bulbs (lacking much of the warmer spectrums all together)... yet my orange cap still comes out neon blood red. And my growth never lagged.

5. Skip the Closed loop. Just use the tunzes. I shouldn't be so brand specific here though.... I know Hydor has some DC turbines as well with a slick looking controller. I dont know how much water they move or the price comparison, but they might be worth looking into as well.

6. If you want an AC Jr. that is a 'step above' the basics that I have mentioned... and is a good idea to control heaters, pH probes-CO2, etc.

13. Substrate: I have tried and now avoid: Oolitic/Sugar Arag. Too fine to 'breathe', sure it can have anaerobic pockets in very shallow areas, but that also means a single critter can disrupt it that much easier. The stuff gets dirty and has the same density as the crap it collects, so its hard to clean (detritus trap). Sure, the critters love it, but as it turns out, oolitic is also a poor buffer due to its chemical nature. This stuff tends to clump up, turn colors, blows around and makes clouds way too easily.

Silica: stay away for many of the same reasons given with oolitic. The fine yet sharp edges (pretty much crushed glass) isnt nice on the delicate membranes of critters that ingest/sift it. I know some will challenge me on this because 'they used it and it seemed fine' or 'someone else said so', but IME, fish have died from passing it through their gills or burying themselves in it.

'Seaflor Grade'... the stuff thats 1.0mm and larger... like 1.0-2.0mm. If you run your hands through it, you can feel it... it has some sharp edges. IMO, when I had it, it was large enough to trap detritus in it almost too easily. It wasn't 'burrower friendly' either... my nassarius snails didnt seem to like it much at all. If you look on CaribSea's own site, they even say its not 'burrower friendly':
http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/dry_aragonite.html

The best stuff I ever used was the Nature's Ocean stuff... its either the Aragonite Natural White #1 or the Samoa Pink. It is right in this 'sweet spot' of .5-1.5mm, and is very soft to the touch, yet isnt so light that it just blows everywhere. I have some bags still downstairs... I should see which one it is. Great stuff though. Im sure getting it dry though is just fine. But the main idea is to get something soft in the .5-1.5mm range. The critters seem to like it the most, and its the easiest to clean (it keeps itself clean more to a certain extent).

And of course... there is 'bare bottom' as well. I tend to go for a sand bed that is 1-3" everywhere... about 2" on the average. Enough so that getting blown around a little doesnt uncover the glass right away, but nothing more than a cuke or snail needs to hide. Rather than cultivate a DSB or sand bed in a 'static' manner, I remove a small percentage every few months... I target the cruddiest looking 10% say... and I give it a good wash in a bucket with freshwater until the water is clear... then I put it back in the tank. Sure, I just killed the sand, but I also removed alot of organic waste and the remaining 90% will quickly respond and re-seed the fresh-cleaned raw sand. This way, my sand doesnt 'build up' gunk that contributes to the 'old tank syndrome' with elevated organic levels, but I also dont have detritus that I have to clean up every other day that just keeps blowing around the bottom because there is no sand. IMO, the sand helps prevent that stuff from just rotting out in the open... the sand is a biological filter in that respect, helping trap the raw crap and start processing it while its in the sand. Its just that from time to time, you have to take some of the compost out before the heap gets to be too much for the sand, and you end up with something like a DSB that 'backfires'.

Crushed Coral/Crushed shells, etc: best to avoid as a substrate... stick to arag.
 
Bulbs? Well, UVL doesnt make 5' bulbs, so you are looking at Giesemann, AquaScience, ATI, and KZ as your main choices.
If 9 bulbs:
3x G-man actinic 03
3x ATI, Aqua Science, or G-man 'blue+' style bulbs... they are all very similar
3x aquablue+ style bulbs... 11,000K, 12,000K, or 15,000K depending on who makes it. If you want a little more daylight, you could sub in one or two 6500K/midday bulbs... or those Aquascience 'duo' type bulbs... G-man just came out with one called the 'Aquaflora' are interesting.

Something like that... you get it. Plenty of output... even though those actinics rob you of some intensity (IMO, their spectrum is worth it, but if you were trying to cut back on the number of bulbs, those would be the first to go). But about a 1:1:1 ratio of actinic03 to blue+ to daylight/aquablue bulbs is what I like myself, and what the corals seem to dig. Some go as simple as 1:1 with aquablue and blue+ bulbs... IMO, this is a little 'washed out'... almost monochromatic. This might be what causes some people to complain that their corals are turing 'pastel' or 'faded', although Im sure feeding, flow, and chemistry play large parts in that as well. The 'power combo' IME is to do 1:1 of daylight/6500K bulbs with blue+ bulbs... very '10,000K' ish, but with enough blue to still be pleasing. That bulb combo is very bright... perhaps the highest intensity per watt (and still look good) out there... unless you arent a fan of the 'sunshine' look.

I dont place alot of stock in these 'red spike' bulbs myself... KZ fiji purple and ATI pro color... They boast a 'red/pink' spike, but I have never seen an actual 'need' for it myself... my pinks, yellows, reds have always been fine. And these bulbs tend to lag in output compared to the aquablues, daylights, and blue bulbs which are the real 'git-r-done' bulbs of the technology. So I question their value. Some people I know have tried them and just dont like the look... too 'pepto pink' they said. At that... you can always try one and see for yourself.
 
I started setting up a 180 gal reef last November and thought I would place my comments and suggestions here. First if you are a hard core reefkeeper you will always want to go bigger. There is little I regret about the way I set up my current tank. I went with 3 250 MH in lumen bright reflectors. I have always been a fan of MH so that is the reason I went with MH instead of T5s. I replaced my lumenarcs for lumenbrights within the first month dew to the fact that the lit up my room as much as my tank + I feel they didn't penetrate the water as well as my LBs do today. I chose to go with vortechs to save realty inside the tank and they do give massive flow without the eyesore.

With this tank I went with dry base rock from 2 part solutions and seeded it with some rock from my previous tank. I found this way a lot better than buying a ton of live rock. I had no noticeable cycle, was able to control what ended up in my tank (no pests) and considerably cheaper.

Click on the red house for more info on my tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13469617#post13469617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Even without the 'gag orders' (I dont mean to demonize RC, its just what I call them, and referring to them doesnt imply any brand in particular), I think that the reason they even exist nullifies my personal opinion's substance as far as 3rd parties are concerned, so I dont really even bother (something I have been open about). Having other owners testify with their own experiences could be assumed a more 'credible' and 'unbiased' means of forming an opinion than anything I could provide then, so I really dont have to say anything. That being said, I never suggested only one brand... and thats what does 'irk' me a bit. There are a few really good ones out there depending on what you want to spend and all. Thats about all I have to say about that.
When someone close to me asks 'Hey, would it be okay if I got this brand instead of this other one?', I rarely say no. Skimmers have existed and been functional for a very long time. I dont care if its 20 years old... if it works, it works.

3/4: I like the 8 bulb retro, but each IC660 can run 3 bulbs, so why not (unless your reflectors are too thick)? Its not a massive overdrive either... 3' and 4' bulbs get overdriven by a hefty amount, but 5' bulbs only get overdriven by something like 6%... as long as you keep the bulbs cool (something you should do anyways), I dont see this as a major 'bulb killer'. Keep in mind that an 80 watt ballast is really something over 90 watts at the plug... so being driven at 100 watts isnt as much of an overdrive.

You can go with 'stock' ballasts... 1x80's... I would say that your goal should be something like 800-900 watts of T5s for a 180. Sure, there are people who 'get away' with less, but they tend to grow their plate montis at the top, and they dont get the same growth as with more light... I think it might have to do something with some SPS that seem to fade as well. I have always run the same wattage T5 as with halide... if I replace a 250watt halide on a tank with T5s, I try to keep it at about 250 watts (or rather, I use the wattage at the outlet, so 275 watts (e-ballast) or 320 watts (HQI/M80). I have never had a problem with faded colors or reds/yellows/ pinks that looked chalky, and I run a very blue assortment of bulbs (lacking much of the warmer spectrums all together)... yet my orange cap still comes out neon blood red. And my growth never lagged.

5. Skip the Closed loop. Just use the tunzes. I shouldn't be so brand specific here though.... I know Hydor has some DC turbines as well with a slick looking controller. I dont know how much water they move or the price comparison, but they might be worth looking into as well.

6. If you want an AC Jr. that is a 'step above' the basics that I have mentioned... and is a good idea to control heaters, pH probes-CO2, etc.

13. Substrate: I have tried and now avoid: Oolitic/Sugar Arag. Too fine to 'breathe', sure it can have anaerobic pockets in very shallow areas, but that also means a single critter can disrupt it that much easier. The stuff gets dirty and has the same density as the crap it collects, so its hard to clean (detritus trap). Sure, the critters love it, but as it turns out, oolitic is also a poor buffer due to its chemical nature. This stuff tends to clump up, turn colors, blows around and makes clouds way too easily.

Silica: stay away for many of the same reasons given with oolitic. The fine yet sharp edges (pretty much crushed glass) isnt nice on the delicate membranes of critters that ingest/sift it. I know some will challenge me on this because 'they used it and it seemed fine' or 'someone else said so', but IME, fish have died from passing it through their gills or burying themselves in it.

'Seaflor Grade'... the stuff thats 1.0mm and larger... like 1.0-2.0mm. If you run your hands through it, you can feel it... it has some sharp edges. IMO, when I had it, it was large enough to trap detritus in it almost too easily. It wasn't 'burrower friendly' either... my nassarius snails didnt seem to like it much at all. If you look on CaribSea's own site, they even say its not 'burrower friendly':
http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/dry_aragonite.html

The best stuff I ever used was the Nature's Ocean stuff... its either the Aragonite Natural White #1 or the Samoa Pink. It is right in this 'sweet spot' of .5-1.5mm, and is very soft to the touch, yet isnt so light that it just blows everywhere. I have some bags still downstairs... I should see which one it is. Great stuff though. Im sure getting it dry though is just fine. But the main idea is to get something soft in the .5-1.5mm range. The critters seem to like it the most, and its the easiest to clean (it keeps itself clean more to a certain extent).

And of course... there is 'bare bottom' as well. I tend to go for a sand bed that is 1-3" everywhere... about 2" on the average. Enough so that getting blown around a little doesnt uncover the glass right away, but nothing more than a cuke or snail needs to hide. Rather than cultivate a DSB or sand bed in a 'static' manner, I remove a small percentage every few months... I target the cruddiest looking 10% say... and I give it a good wash in a bucket with freshwater until the water is clear... then I put it back in the tank. Sure, I just killed the sand, but I also removed alot of organic waste and the remaining 90% will quickly respond and re-seed the fresh-cleaned raw sand. This way, my sand doesnt 'build up' gunk that contributes to the 'old tank syndrome' with elevated organic levels, but I also dont have detritus that I have to clean up every other day that just keeps blowing around the bottom because there is no sand. IMO, the sand helps prevent that stuff from just rotting out in the open... the sand is a biological filter in that respect, helping trap the raw crap and start processing it while its in the sand. Its just that from time to time, you have to take some of the compost out before the heap gets to be too much for the sand, and you end up with something like a DSB that 'backfires'.

Crushed Coral/Crushed shells, etc: best to avoid as a substrate... stick to arag.

I see where you're coming from on overdriven vs. non-overdriven on 80w (5') fixtures. Keeping in line with the idea that this be a general thread for big-tank newbies, would you agree then that non-overdriven is the way to go for 4' and 3' fixtures?

I do have to comment on the statement that you need 800-900w on a 180g. IME this is overkill IF you are using a higher end unit that is properly cooled (and thus running efficiently). I really can't speak on Ice Cap/Tek retros, but I would think since the SLR reflectors are as nice as they come, if you use fans to properly cool the retros, they should be equivalent output-wise to ATI, Sfiligoi, etc. From my experience and others I've spoken to, you aren't "getting away" with less at all, nor do I think its the reason for pale colors. In fact, I had my corals bleach from 648w on my 238g, and I honestly have trouble finding places for my LPS, because they bleach almost anywhere directly under my fixture. On a 180g, a properly cooled 8x80w putting out 640w is plenty (or 720w if its actually putting out 90w per bulb). If you are keeping 100% SPS, nothing wrong with 800-900w, but it can make keeping LPS tough and is more than you need, just my experience....
 
Remember to focus on the location of the tank. Don't put it in a place that doesn't have daily foot traffic. Also make sure you have a way to vent the added humidity out of your house or you will be growing mold. Also figure out what will be the best way to view your tank (in-wall, standard stand, or peninsular viewing). equiment is dealers choice, just make sure that it is high quality so you don't have to buy it twice. For a beginner I would also focus on making items as automated as possible with auto top-off and RO/DI water filtration systems. Determine what you are looking to do long term that way you will have answer's before filling the tank. i.e. do i want calc. reactor or kalk stirrer, closed loop or powerheads, etc.
good luck, take your time, and have fun.
jjk
 
Venturing out of lurk mode with my first post on this site... re: DSB - if you're looking for "filtration" effect only, consider a remote sand bed either in a sump compartment or separate container (easily removed if you're unhappy with the results) where you can go as deep as you dare.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470082#post13470082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
I see where you're coming from on overdriven vs. non-overdriven on 80w (5') fixtures. Keeping in line with the idea that this be a general thread for big-tank newbies, would you agree then that non-overdriven is the way to go for 4' and 3' fixtures?

I do have to comment on the statement that you need 800-900w on a 180g. IME this is overkill IF you are using a higher end unit that is properly cooled (and thus running efficiently). I really can't speak on Ice Cap/Tek retros, but I would think since the SLR reflectors are as nice as they come, if you use fans to properly cool the retros, they should be equivalent output-wise to ATI, Sfiligoi, etc. From my experience and others I've spoken to, you aren't "getting away" with less at all, nor do I think its the reason for pale colors. In fact, I had my corals bleach from 648w on my 238g, and I honestly have trouble finding places for my LPS, because they bleach almost anywhere directly under my fixture. On a 180g, a properly cooled 8x80w putting out 640w is plenty (or 720w if its actually putting out 90w per bulb). If you are keeping 100% SPS, nothing wrong with 800-900w, but it can make keeping LPS tough and is more than you need, just my experience....

Agree... Im not a fan of the Icecap 660 being used on bulbs other than the 5' ones.

As for the total wattage... just like halides, it really comes down to the bulbs and their spectrum. An XM 10,000K is brighter than a Ushio 10,000K, and most 10,000Ks are about 2x as bright as 20,000Ks. A buddy of mine set up his 40B with 4x39 watt T5s and only used 2 GE 6500K bulbs and 2 ATI blue+ bulbs, yet had more light intensity throughout much of his tank compared to my 6x39 watt Tek with 2x actinic03, 2x aquablues, and 2x actinic+ bulbs (all G-man).

It seems like many tend to go with the more '20,000K'ish look in the end... maybe some daylight in there, but so little that its 'supplimental' more than anything. You can get this look with T5s much better than with halides IMO because T5s are more efficient at making blue light, while halides are still the boss when it comes to the daylight/warmer frequencies. And with T5s, you can have the 'deep blue' look, but it doesnt end up looking monochromatic like with halides that have a huge blue spike and nothing else to offer... with T5s you can mix and match the bulbs more to get it 'just right' rather than having to try a whole new bulb for everything.

As for 'what you need'... this isnt a 'noob friendly' topic, but it has to do more with the more planar light field that T5s have compared to halides. But for the 'high light' corals that you keep at the top, T5's dont create the same intensities that halides do... its more spread out. These corals could use a little more, although I do notice that I can get some 'greedy' corals to color in better under lower light intensities than with halides... most likely having something to do with the greater tissue coverage/illumination since the light comes in from a wider area... a bit like saying 'what makes more light... 10 lightbulbs in one room, or one lightbulb in 10 different rooms?' Well... 10 lightbulbs might mean more intensity for that one room, but considering the rest are in the dark... Anyways, while these corals pigment in to look more 'neon', they also dont grow as fast, but that might be because they also seem to grow more in every direction rather than with a phototropic response... Once again... does the coral that grows two branches 5" long in a month 'grow more' or the one that grows 10 branches 1" a month?

T5's do penetrate the water more though because they are a more spread out source (along the same lines as 'less shadows'), so watch out for those corals you put at the bottom. IMO, the best thing to do with T5s is consider a taller tank... If I had to do over my 40B knowing what I do now, I would have opted for a 50B or 65B instead... keeping things the same up top, but allowing my lower light corals a little more shade at the bottom. Because T5's carry so well, and their light field is so spread out, some LPS and lower light corals have a hard time. Many 'open brain' style LPS use their internal calcium carbonate structure as an internal optic system... directing light from brighter lit areas to lower lit, and the opposite. But when you have light coming in at every angle, the coral loses its ability to 'shade' its internals very well. Most LPS that I see 'melt' from T5's seem to die from the inside-out because of this... it would seem that the inside of the coral has 'overheated'. I had GSP also pack up and die very fast on me with T5s, and a large pipe-organ colony as well until I put it under another rock (where it still was getting enough indirect light to keep it happy).

The main reason I suggest more bulbs over less is flexibility. If that person decides they want to use a mix of bulbs that arent as efficient, like those 'red-spike' bulbs or true actinic03's, then they aren't going to run into problems. If a person wants to run nothing but fiji purple, aquablues, and actinic 03... there is still enough wattage to compensate. I figure its easier to buy a fixture with a bulb or two that you dont use as much (or you have a shorter daily photoperiod), than to get one that is too small and wish you could have just a couple more. On the other hand, if you go crazy and try to pack as many bulbs over the tank, at a certain point, you are going to start seeing diminished returns since 10 or 12 bulbs also means you end up with narrower, and often less efficient reflectors. The 'geometric' ideal for a 100% geometric reflective reflector shape around a 5/8" diameter source: all light from the back side is faced to the front 160 degrees without reflecting any back at the bulb... this gives a reflector that is just over 2"... about 2.125-2.25" and ONE constant curved surface... individual facets make this minimum even higher. This however says nothing as for what angle that light is exiting the reflector at, and as it turns out, much of the light reflected by the sides is angled within 30 degrees from horizontal... great for a room or horticulture... not so great for tanks... so from there, the 'wings' get angled up a bit to start reflecting that light downwards... and now we are at 3" or more to be 'perfect'. This should tell you something... companies that make reflectors much narrower than 2", heck 2.5" are starting to cut corners as far as reflector efficiency. Maybe they have decided to ignore the back 20-25 degrees of the bulb (this light often has to hit the reflector 2x before it exits anyways, so if you are using say... 95% reflective material, you just lost 10% anyways from this small part of the bulb)... just reflecting that light back at the bulb, so the remaining reflector can concentrate on the light coming out the sides while still keeping the whole reflector under a certain width. So depending on the design, once you start to pack too many bulbs over your tank, you could be losing more light from cramped reflector designs rather than what you gain from the extra bulbs. This might feed into your opinions on 'how much wattage is enough'... Running only 6 bulbs over a tank with some wide Tek 2 reflectors might make 90% of the light that 8 bulbs using only 2" wide reflectors produce.

I would try to cover the whole water surface. For a 180 (or maybe a 210 is a better option here), thats 24" (more like 22 or 23, but you can angle the front and back end reflectors inwards). So in Tek2's, depending on the generation, thats 8 to 9 bulbs (the new design is slightly narrower). In Icecap SLR's (2.5"), thats ALMOST 10 bulbs by 1/2 an inch... if you overlap the 'lip' on the Icecaps, you can fit them. If you use Aquactinics 2" wide retrofit reflectors, thats about 12 bulbs!!! Okay, thats getting into overkill. But lets look at it... 8 to 9 bulbs is only 640 to 720 watts if not overdriven. Thats reasonable. Maybe I can pull back a little on my suggestion of 800-900 watts... this would be good for a 180g. I think running them on Icecaps for a nice boost in output would be worth it though too. What can I say... I love the big stags, blue prostratas, millis, slimers, table acros, crocea clams, etc. If you dont see yourself getting these as much... sure, you can get away with less. Tort, Green Milli, Suharsonoi, granulosa, most montiporas, etc... they dont need as much. Me, I like to grow plana frags on the sand though...lol.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470210#post13470210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jjk82901
Remember to focus on the location of the tank. Don't put it in a place that doesn't have daily foot traffic. Also make sure you have a way to vent the added humidity out of your house or you will be growing mold. Also figure out what will be the best way to view your tank (in-wall, standard stand, or peninsular viewing). equiment is dealers choice, just make sure that it is high quality so you don't have to buy it twice. For a beginner I would also focus on making items as automated as possible with auto top-off and RO/DI water filtration systems. Determine what you are looking to do long term that way you will have answer's before filling the tank. i.e. do i want calc. reactor or kalk stirrer, closed loop or powerheads, etc.
good luck, take your time, and have fun.
jjk

I think there is a downside to automation. Sure, it might be more reliable, but I think that the 'hands on' approach gives more experience and insight because you do get to see what happens from your actions, rather than what you programmed a computer to do. It may be more risky... but when you forget to add buffer one day, and the next day your alkalinity takes a dive and you see your polyps retracting... you learn more from mistakes than anything. That way, when the day comes that your pH probe is out of calibration, or something else goes out of whack, you can diagnose the problem just by looking and using your own 'computer' rather than freaking out because you dont have a clue about why your calcium reactor's pH probe reads 5.0 (impossible) yet your corals are RTN-ing because your alkalinity and calcium dropped overnight because the reactor's real pH is 8.1... Auto top off's are one thing... but you can get 'too automated', and then you stop paying attention and learning what you need to.

I agree with the 'ducting' idea. My last tank was a engineering nightmare because I wanted to have the entire canopy ducted to the outside... so all the hot air and humidity would go outside. In the end, I made the T5 unit so that its acrylic 'sheild' actually sat on the parimeter bracing of the tank, sealing it for less humidity. I ducted the fixture's 120mm fans to blow through a 4" duct to the outside as well, and had an extra fan drawing in air from the room and blowing it outside as well... all in an effort to keep the place cooler and dryer so the AC could keep up. I even had my skimmer air coming from outside (be careful... you might have vapors or fumes that I dont from things like the furnace, lawn chemicals, people smoking outside your place and blowing it into your air intake). You would be shocked how much this can help your ORP/pH since all those pesky humans are sucking up all the O2 and putting all that CO2 into an enclosed space, and water sucks up more CO2 than air. And my skimmer cup was ducted so all the stinky humid air went back outside as well. Great ideas... keeping the hot and humid air out of the rest of the house as much as is reasonalbe can keep a huge chunk from your utility bills. Maybe having a seperate enclosed room with its own door and window is enough too.
 
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