Leaching rock - would some take a moment to explain, please?

Angel*Fish

cats and large squashes
I'm always reading that the diatoms and hair algae in new tanks are caused by the rock and sand leaching phosphates and silicates. -That the rocks leach this stuff out and we must wait for them to finish until it's all leached out. What it is about our systems that would cause this rock, which is new to us but hardly new to the world, to somehow suddenly finish all the leaching it's ever going to do?

What I had thought was that with time the rock becomes coated with microalgae, bacteria, various life and maybe some kind of biofilm like bacteria byproducts or something that would slow or stop the leaching?
 
It's just Le Chatlier's principle. Eventually, it will reach equilibrium. In the ocean, there is a crap ton of water available to dilute anything in the rock. In our tanks, the volume is smaller, so it doesn't take as long for things like phosphates to become concentrated enough to absorb into the rocks.

Alternatively, when the microfauna in/on the rocks die off, they release that back into the water column, where it has to be dealt with. Remember that biofilms aren't impermeable layers. If they were, the bacteria at the bottom would be screwed because they couldn't get any nutrients or export any wastes. They are highly permeable, especially to small molecules. I didn't go to Penn State (and they messed up my bracket) but this is a good starter for biofilms: http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/e/jel5/biofilms/primer.html
 
I don't understand how it can reach equilibrium if we are doing water changes or exporting phosphates.

I realize biofilm isn't like saran wrap, but thanks for that link I'm sure I'll find it good reading.

My tank has run fallow for 3 years, with water and a heater. I just started it up again and I'm having the same thing any new tank has - huge diatom bloom and the beginning of a few wisps of hair algae.

I hate to sound stupid, but I still don't get this at all.
 
Things on the rock die, decompose, and release the nutrients from that biomass back into the water where it becomes available for use by algae. Eventually all of those nutrients get locked back up in standing biomass or get exported and the algae cycles end.
 
Things on the rock die, decompose, and release the nutrients from that biomass back into the water where it becomes available for use by algae. Eventually all of those nutrients get locked back up in standing biomass or get exported and the algae cycles end.
That's what I originally thought - that phosphate comes from food, animal waste and die off, but when I stated it on another thread I was very emphatically corrected. Well, I didn't use words like biomass ;) .

Just to be clear, are you saying you don't believe that the rock is literally leaching enough phosphate to cause the algae blooms, but rather it's the death of the various life on the rock? And an "established" tank has reached the point, not where the phosphate has finally leached all out of the rock, but where an equilibrium has been reached, with the phosphate exchanges flowing back and forth at a relatively equal rate?

On a side note, I've learned I can cause a diatom bloom any time I want by over feeding a bunch of flake food. :)
 
So, when I cycle my tank, I am basically just riding out whatever has died on my rocks, right?

Also, if i use Dry Rock instead of Live rock, is that stuff leaching, or just waiting to get a base of bacteria on it?
 
Some rock can leach. The best example I have is people who make their own rocks from cement. They have to cycle their rocks for a few months just to make sure they aren't going to leach anything. if you're using rocks meant for reefing they probably wont leach much, but some people try to use any old rocks or make their own.

I think what's happening is people are taking the above and applying it to all rocks.
 
just to be clear, are you saying you don't believe that the rock is literally leaching enough phosphate to cause the algae blooms

There can be multiple sources of phosphate from rock. In addition to release from organic matter (dead or dying organisms, detritus, etc.), phosphate will also bind directly onto calcium carbonate surfaces.

So any calcium carbonate which has previously been in contact with higher concentrations of phosphate can release some of that bound phosphate when the rock is placed into water with a lower level of dissolved phosphate (or lower pH) than was present when it first bound.

I discuss that here:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

from it:

A second mechanism for potential phosphate reduction when using high pH additives is the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The absorption of phosphate from seawater onto aragonite is pH dependent, with the binding maximized at around pH 8.4 and with less binding occurring at lower and higher pH values. Habib Sekha (owner of Salifert) has pointed out that limewater additions may lead to substantial precipitation of calcium carbonate in reef aquaria. This idea makes perfect sense. After all, it is certainly not the case that large numbers of reef aquaria exactly balance calcification needs by replacing all evaporated water with saturated limewater. And yet, many aquarists find that calcium and alkalinity levels are stable over long time periods with just that scenario. One way this can be true is if the excess calcium and alkalinity, which such additions typically add to the aquarium, are subsequently removed by precipitation of calcium carbonate (such as on heaters, pumps, sand, live rock, etc.). It is this ongoing precipitation of calcium carbonate, then, that may reduce the phosphate levels; phosphate binds to these growing surfaces and becomes part of the solid precipitate.

If the calcium carbonate crystal is static (not growing), then this process is reversible, and the aragonite can act as a reservoir for phosphate. This reservoir can inhibit the complete removal of excess phosphate from a reef aquarium that has experienced very high phosphate levels, and may permit algae to continue to thrive despite all external phosphate sources having been cut off. In such extreme cases, removal of the substrate may even be required.

If the calcium carbonate deposits are growing, then phosphate may become buried in the growing crystal, which can act as a sink for phosphate, at least until that CaCO3 is somehow dissolved. Additionally, if these crystals are in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

If phosphate binds to calcium carbonate surfaces to a significant extent in reef aquaria, then this mechanism may be attained with other high pH additive systems (such as some of the two-part additives, including Recipe #1 of my DIY system). However, this potential precipitation of phosphate on growing calcium carbonate surfaces will not be as readily attained with low pH systems, such as those using calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors or those where the pH is low due to excessive atmospheric carbon dioxide, because the low pH inhibits the precipitation of excess calcium and alkalinity as calcium carbonate, as well as inhibiting the binding of phosphate to calcium carbonate.
 
Is it possible that even after 3 years of constant 20% water changes every 2 weeks that the rock can still be leaching phosphates?

I have been fighting a algae in my sand for a few years now. I believe it is cyano but I am not sure.
 
It is possible it is still holding phosphate if the phosphate level has never been low, yes. But an even more likely explanation is that there may be detritus in the sand that is decomposing, and/or simply the fact that cyano likes to grow on sand, even fairly new and clean sand. I wouldn't assume that the cyano problem necessarily lies in the sand itself, rather than available nutrients in the water.
 
It is possible it is still holding phosphate if the phosphate level has never been low, yes. But an even more likely explanation is that there may be detritus in the sand that is decomposing, and/or simply the fact that cyano likes to grow on sand, even fairly new and clean sand. I wouldn't assume that the cyano problem necessarily lies in the sand itself, rather than available nutrients in the water.

While trying not to Hijack this thread :)

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1999062

I do believe that is the case. I have never had any hair algae, bubble algae on the rocks.

I have tried different sand depths and went to the extent of removing most of it and replacing it with new. The new sand did the same thing after a short time so I "heard " it was because it did not have beneficial bacteria built up. I was talked in to buying garf grunge which did not help at all and I am still trying to get the larger chunks out.


I have a hanna phosphate tester coming today to test my well water after the ro/di. I assumed it would be 0 but I have never actually tested it.
 
I have a hanna phosphate tester coming today to test my well water after the ro/di. I assumed it would be 0 but I have never actually tested it.


If the TDS of the RO/DI effluent is 0 ppm TDS, then there won't be any significant phosphate in it. Phosphate is well removed by an RO, and completely by a properly functioning DI. :)
 
I should be ok then. I run dual stage DI and keep the filters fresh. My well water does go through di resin pretty fast though.
 
I soaked some dead rock that I received from somebody who dried it out years before giving it to me. The stench of the first batch of water I changed 2 days later was unbearable.
 
Interesting discussion, So, is it possible that despite all of my export mechanisms ----> Macro algae, ATS, skimmer, Hand harvesting hair algae from the dislay, monthly water changes of 30%, Pure 0 TDS tested regularly RODI top off and water change water, limited feeding schedule, and low fish bioload that I will still be battling Hair algae 10 years from now.

Simply because i reused live rock that was dead and went through a mass die off, which lost most of it's entire biofilm and anything live inside the rocks had to have been killed when ammonia hit over 8.0 due to high limewater Over dose in my 55g.

In short, am I destined to have hair algae forever?
 
Well, the phosphate on the rock can be stripped out with adequate ongoing export. It is just that a single 100% water change cannot do so. :)
 
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