Lethargic Seahorse

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I have a pair of yellow Kuda's and housed them in a 6 gal tank drilled to my sump (already attached to another system). They've been fine for a month, eating several SW grass shrimp per day (at times loaded with cyclopeeze, etc). Their only tankmates are two tiny hermits (red and blue legged), a nassarius snail, and a small mandarin goby.

My problem is that the male has become extremely lethargic, mainly hanging out in one corner of the tank and only moving occasionally. He responds to new grass shrimp dropped into the tank, and nips at them if they're nearby - but no longer chases them. He hasn't eaten in 4-5 days, but the female comes by and eats all of the shrimp I put in every day. He appears emaciated (obviously due to the lack of eating), and his face and tail remain a dark color during the day - when both horses usually turn yellow.

Ammonia (.25-.5)
Nitrates (0)
Nitrites (0)
pH (8.1)
Salinity (1.024)
Temp (78.5)

Ammonia has always been 0, but recently due to the fact that I have been feeding these two a lot, it has increased somewhat. I've been doing 10% water changes biweekly for 2 weeks now hoping to 'clean up' the water. I added pH buffer to increase it to 8.3-8.4 this morning. The temp is a little higher than usual because I had a clown goby die of Ich. recently and wanted to speed up the life cycle of the parasite and have my UV sterilizer kill the tomates.

The male hasn't been scratching, so I don't believe it is an external parasitic problem. He's not bloated, and there are no apparent bubbles in him or on him. I haven't noticed "white stringy poop" because he hasn't eaten, so I don't think it is an internal parasite. He doesn't have white nodes sprinkled all over his body, as the goby did, so maybe not Ich. And there is no rotting or flesh sloughing, so I don't think there is a bacterial infection.

The only thing I notice is that there are very small white flecs over his mid-section, but I can't really say that they aren't part of his coloration (I noticed he had black white and red 'freckles' all over him from when I got him, and they weren't node-like and never bothered him before). If it is Ich., wouldn't these grow into white clumps/nodes large enough to notice? I'm a microbiology major, and learned a lot about vibrio spp recently, and other marine bacteria. But I don't know how to diagnose for a vibrio infection. I've also read a lot of posts talking about how Neo3 may help with that sort of problem. Could this be something I need to worry about?

Lastly, I had a scarlet hermit and an emerald crab die over the past week in my main tank. I have 5 other hermits still alive and crawling around, a serpeant star, a cleaner shrimp, a peppermint shrimp, and plenty of different types of snails still alive. I also have a green bubble tip anemone and a firefish that seem healthy. These are all in my main tank. So there are plenty of vert's and invert's healthy and eating.

Sorry for the long post, but I've been reading everything possible over the past 5 days, and asking a hundred questions at both of my LFSs, and have not found anything particularly helpful. I was told to add garlic to some grass shrimp and hope he will eat them, but to avoid any dips for now. The other LFS said that if my water quality is fine and the horse's diet is fine, I have nothing to worry about - otherwise if he's dieing, then he is probably going to die. But I've not given up hope.

Please help.
 
After staring at the seahorse for hours now, I was able to make out what the little specs were. They look shiny when I shine a flash light on the horse's body, like tiny little bubbles perhaps. Is this bacteria producing gas on his body? What should I do? Thanks ahead of time for anyone's help.
 
So how much do you expect him to move around in a 6g tank? I'm actually surprised the pair of them have lasted this long. The minimum sized tank for a pair of kuda is normally considered to be 20g.
Since they are eating live foods and not frozen, it leads me to believe these are wild caught horses. Any number of problems can occur with wild caught horses, especially if your ammonia is above 0, and you have other diseases going on with your other fish. Seahorses usually do not get ich, but any horse that hasn't eaten for 4-5 days is on a downward trend.
My advice would be to buy a cheap 10g tank to quarantine them. The temp should be no more than 72 degrees. Keep offering live food, very small and easy to snick. Keep your water quality as high as possible, even if it means doing a 50% water change every day. Treat with some triple sulpha at the recommended dosage unless you begin to see signs of disease, then double it. You can get it at Petsmart. Then, if you can pull them thru this, get them into another cycled tank which is a minimum of 20g.
Your 6g is good for nano stuff, but not seahorses.
 
Thank you so much for the help/info. I'm gonna set up the quarantine this afternoon.

Do you think I should put both of them in the new tank in case the female may be carrying whatever is afflicting them? And how quickly can I adjust this temperature from 78 down to 72?

They are actually captive-bread, and apparently used to eat frozen but don't seem to respond to it now.

Thanks again April
-Shovon
 
I would put them both into quarantine. Not eating frozen if they are used to it is a bad sign. Keep your water quality as high as possible, and try to keep them eating, even if it's live.

You can lower the temp using a 2 liter frozen pop bottle simply floating in the tank. This will lower it slowly, and they will have time to adjust. Do you have any way to keep it that low for a significant period of time? (we're talking possibly months here) The optimal temp is around 72 degrees for kuda, but if you don't have any way to keep it that low for several months, then don't bother. The change of it going up and down will cause more harm than leaving it at 78.
Captive bred horses may have no immunities to whatever the wild caught fish and inverts in your other tank may be carrying. If I'm reading your post correctly, your 6g tank is plumbed in with your sump and other system. This is less than ideal.

You should probably take the time while the horses are in quarantine to set up another tank just for them, which is not connected to any tanks with WC fish or inverts and let it cycle. If this is not feasible, the next step would be to either take your horses back to wherever you got them (if they live thru this) or watch them die. They will not live for a long period of time in a 6g tank. Sorry that this sounds harsh, but you are seeing first-hand what happens with ammonia poisoning, and possible exposure to disease they have no immunity to.

BTW, a mandarin is not an acceptable nano tank fish either, unless it is already trained to frozen foods. It will eat all of the available pods in such a small tank in a very short time, then slowly starve to death.
 
Shovon, a couple of thoughts.

6 gal is too small! Picture yourself locked in a 30 square foot bathroom for 6 months and unable to come out. You could live but you would likely go nuts. For our seahorses it is a similar issue. They can live in small places but if the confines are too small it becomes a stressor. Stress and fish usually equals a disaster sooner or later.

Seahorses can get ich. You don't see it very often but can happen. Rarely do you see it on the exterior of the seahorse, it is usually found around the gills.

On the parasites: It is possible that you are dealing with them. The absence of white stringy poop does not rule out internal parasites. Ectoparasites are most commonly found in the gills and snout area. Symptons of a snout infestation include weak snick and the seahorse not eating. Unless the SW shrimp are aquacultured, they can be a source of parasite introduction. It is a risk that we have to accept when using live feeds.

Setting up a 10 gal hospital tank is a very good idea. Not only can we isolate and treat in it, but it does give more room than the fuge.

I would really like to see a couple of good pics if at possible. Especially the spots you were refering to.

I would consider giving the horse a FW dip. This should be done in water that is of the same temp, ph and well oxygenated. Normally I dip for 8 to 10 minutes. If the horse has ectoparasites, it will likely react. This can be quite stressful for the keeper but unless he lays down on his side and stops breathing I would go for the whole 8 to 10 minutes. If ectoparasites are the issue, I would expect him to resume eating 18 to 24 hours post dip.

In the interim, I would get your meds lined up in case you need to go further with treatment. Formalin will be handy if he responds to the dip. Antibiotics will may be needed as well. For antibiotics I recommend NEO3, or Neomycin and Triple sulpha (these work together to get a synergistic effect) or possibly a nifurpirinol based medication.

If the horse doesn't begin to eat very soon, you will also likely need to tube feed in order to save him.

Dan
 
I lost internet for two days. I absolutely hate it when that happens, and it seems to happen a lot.

Anyway, I set up a quarantine tank with a heater and an airstone (I put a small 130gph pump in it but it seemed to be producing too much current and was blowing the fake plant around). Taking the advice of a friend that works at the LFS, I used a nifurpirinol based med (can't remember how to spell the med's actual name) and am waiting for it to take effect. It should deal with internal as well as external parasites.

The only thing I've noticed is that he starts to swim around a little more, and I'm not sure if its dead skin or just dirt that was settled on his tail, but a thin layer peeled off (similar to a sunburn with flakes coming off of our skin). His skin looks normal as before, and there is nothing around his gills (Ich or anything like that). He has still not responded to the grass shrimp so I need to figure out how to get him to eat something else asap. Frozen mysid is not working yet either.

How exactly do you tube feed a seahorse?

Thanks April and Dan for all of your help - I'm going to convert my 30 gal cube into a seahorse display and get another tank soon (I'll be getting rid of the 6 gal).
 
Sorry about the internet. Sucks when that happens.

This link will give you some help with tube feeding. Gain access to the supplies will need to be done quickly. An 18 ga IV cath without a needle or a 3.5 fr red rubber catheter or a Portex Cannula can be used.

Quarantine tank with an airstone should be sufficient. You will have to do water changes to keep up with water quality.

It would really help if you could post some pictures.

Nifurpirinol is a good med. Great as an antibiotic but will not be good enough for antiparasitic issues.

Visual inspection for parasites will not be good enough. Many can't be seen without a sampling under a scope. Ones inside the snout will not be able to be seen anyway.

Dan
 
I don't have a working digital camera, otherwise I'd post a pic. I'll see if I can borrow one tomorrow.

I went ahead and put the female seahorse into the quarantine just to make sure if she was carrying anything that I could get rid of it now. At first she was swimming around really fast, maybe because she was stressed for a little bit in a new environment? Then she went and wrapped right around the male and the two stayed like that for most of the time (they seem to like hanging out by the bubbles). The male still has not been eating so tomorrow I'm going to attempt the tube feeding. He actually looks bloated now as though he had eaten a lot, but I know he hasn't. Perhaps the medication is causing something to produce air inside his gut?

I did a 50% water change as the medication recommended and added another dose. Within an hour of doing this, the male began to swim around and couldn't maintain bouyancy. So now I'm thinking there is air building up inside of him and he's obviously not comfortable with it. I tried to help him anchor to the fake plant and then lowered it slowly several times, but he lets go and just continues to float and swim around quickly.

I'll have to go to the LFS in the morning and figure this whole thing out again.

Until I get pictures posted, I'll try to provide a description: the male is completely black in color (as opposed to his usual yellow/spotted appearance). He has stringy/flakey residue coming off of his body, looks like skin peeling. And now his abdomen looks as though its full (not as if it were about to bust, but just as it would look if he ate 3-4 grass shrimp). He is currently floating and swimming around pretty fast, and part of him is touching the surface/air because he can't maintain bouyancy.

I don't know if I should switch to Triple Sulfa, or anything else. I'll get the complete description of the medication that I'm giving him and post it tomorrow (it came from a container the store owner had with a medical label on it - he put 3 in a bag and gave me instructions from the label, saying that this is what he uses when he has parasitic problems).

Dan if you have any more ideas on what I could do - I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks again for everything so far.

-Shovon
 
Does he look bloated in the pouch or above the pouch in his stomach/chest area? I suspect you will need Diamox. Diamox is a prescription drug and will require a Vet to prescribe it to obtain locally unless you have another seahorse keeper local with it onhand.

Getting nutrition in him is critical if he hasn't eaten in a few days. Adding Beta Glucan, if possible, may help.

If you are going to switch antibiotics, I would highly recommend adding Neomycin to the Triple Sulpha or going with NEO3. Neomycin is not normally available in most LFS. The Name, ingredients and dosage of the meds given would be helpful.

You mention skin peeling. Is it white underneath where the skin is peeling?

Dan
 
He does not have Pouch Emphysema, as the gas is definately located inside the chest/stomach area: "Internal Gas Bubble Disease."

The consensus is that he had a bacterial and/or parasitic infection, and the medication (metronidazole) caused a dieing off inside the infected areas, producing the gas that I am seeing inside his chest. Good news is that he isn't floating at the top hopelessly as he was last night, instead he is near the top and can manage to anchor on the airline.

Actually, today I spoke to a number of people, and we decided that Diamox (Acetazolamide) would be the best bet - and the sooner the better. And as you already know, I can't get it without a vet. I can't get NEO3 (LFS said it must be prescribed), but I did buy Triple Sulfa. So I'm going to run down to a few vet's offices tomorrow and ask if they have either of these.

Skin peeling is apparently just molting of old/dead skin which (again LFS said) may happen with any fish from time to time. There is normal skin underneath. It is not sheets of skin that is coming off, just tiny stringy pieces as though he were sun burned (looks like a dwarf lion with unnatural shreds hanging off). There is one small line of white that I saw on his tail 1/4" beneath the dorsal fin.

Dan, as you mentioned - the main thing I want right now is for him to start eating again. Please let me know how I might be able to manage this. I tried tiny grass shrimp (with and without garlic extract), frozen mysid, frozen baby mysid, and even tiny guppies (friend of mine at the LFS showed me that the store seahorses will eat them). So far, still no signs of eating. Can you explain adding beta glucan? I am willing to try absolutely everything. LFS said tube feeding would be pretty difficult..

Thanks - Shovon
 
NEO3 isn't a prescription. It and tube feeding supplies can be ordered from here. Neomycin can be ordered from a number of places online including National Fish Pharmaceuticals. It can also be found locally in Farm Supply stores. It is sold over the counter for swine in controlling diarrhea.

The most difficult part about tube feeding is having the supplies needed and keeping your own nerves at bay. Did you review the link I posted above at tube feeding?

Dan
 
I did read the tube feeding instructions - over and over in fact. I'm actually really afraid of doing the procedure, and really would have liked it if someone else did it for me. I'm going to order the supplies and have them overnighted. Hopefully it isn't too late (although it is very late already). The clove oil sedation scares me quite a bit as well.

I'm really feeling distraught over the whole thing. It seems that something bad happens with my tanks whenever I'm in the middle of a lot of other things in my life. I just graduated college and am currently in the process of applying to dental school, taking my dental admission test, continuing research commitments, etc. I had a couple of friends in town over the past few days because it was actually my birthday yesterday, and between entertaining them and taking care of the seahorses, along with taking care of family involvements, I just feel completely overwhelmed.

I just wish a miracle would happen and the seahorses and the tank would completely turn around.

Tomorrow is another day. I'll get the tube feeding done hopefully as soon as possible.

I can't thank you enough for checking on these issues and for your help, Dan.
 
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This may be wrong, but I tube fed my seahorses without clove oil sedation because it scared me also. I found a different set of instructions on tube feeding from syngnathid.com. I'm not saying that you should not sedate them, it just seemed safer to me. Good Luck!
 
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