LFS running Low Copper and TTM

[firemountain]

Currently running my Helfrichi Firefish through the TTM. My LFS runs low level copper on their tanks, with an SG of 1.020.

Few quick questions...

1. If the fish did have ICH, which was being masked by the low level of copper, how many days into the TTM would the ICH visually present itself?

2. With my LFS running low SG at 1.020, I didn't want to worry about acclimating the SG level to match my QT at 1.025. Hence....I decided to just match my 1st Transfer Tank to my LFS at 1.020, float only for temp acclimation, then only acclimate by doubling the water volume for any ph fluctuations, and they add the fish.

My plan is to then increase SG by .01 for each Tank Transfer, so by the time the fish hits my QT, my SG will be matched. Would that be ok?? Is a .01 SG increase fine when you are just transferring a fish from one transfer tank into another, without any acclimation.

Or do I just keep all of the TTM at the same SG of 1.020, and then worry about slowly increasing my SG once my fish has made it into my QT....since it would be in there for a few more weeks before hitting my DT....Any thoughts??

3. Since my fish was exposed to low levels of copper in the LFS, is there any problems and/or adverse reactions with adding Prime on day 2 ?? I know copper and Prime can be a toxic combination, but this is a bit different, since there was barely any LFS tank water transferred initially.

 

[Kidd Reef]

Fish usually show signs of Copper masked Symptoms 3-4 weeks after being taken out of an environment with copper in it.

Prime Should be fine as long as it isnt in your water as far as i know.

Your salinity plan sounds fine if not a bit excessive in my opinion, Personally i would have just acclimated the fish to the initial salinity i wanted to work with and be done with it, Tinkering with salinity levels is annoying in my experience.

 

[snorvich]

Currently running my Helfrichi Firefish through the TTM. My LFS runs low level copper on their tanks, with an SG of 1.020.

Few quick questions...

1. If the fish did have ICH, which was being masked by the low level of copper, how many days into the TTM would the ICH visually present itself?

It will show up around 4 weeks after removal from the environment containing copper

2. With my LFS running low SG at 1.020, I didn't want to worry about acclimating the SG level to match my QT at 1.025. Hence....I decided to just match my 1st Transfer Tank to my LFS at 1.020, float only for temp acclimation, then only acclimate by doubling the water volume for any ph fluctuations, and they add the fish. You do not want to add water from your LFS (which contains copper and potentially parasite related issues)

My plan is to then increase SG by .01 for each Tank Transfer, so by the time the fish hits my QT, my SG will be matched. Would that be ok?? Is a .01 SG increase fine when you are just transferring a fish from one transfer tank into another, without any acclimation. should be fine

Or do I just keep all of the TTM at the same SG of 1.020, and then worry about slowly increasing my SG once my fish has made it into my QT....since it would be in there for a few more weeks before hitting my DT....Any thoughts??

It should be in QT for a minimum of 3 weeks, preferably 4

3. Since my fish was exposed to low levels of copper in the LFS, is there any problems and/or adverse reactions with adding Prime on day 2 ?? I know copper and Prime can be a toxic combination, but this is a bit different, since there was barely any LFS tank water transferred initially. I would wait until the second cycle when no residual LFS water is involved

 

[tylersarah]

Your salinity plan sounds fine if not a bit excessive in my opinion, Personally i would have just acclimated the fish to the initial salinity i wanted to work with and be done with it, Tinkering with salinity levels is annoying in my experience.

I disagree. An INCREASE from 1.020-1.025 is a lot for a fish to handle. If it were a decrease, there would be no issue.

 

[firemountain]

Sorry Steve...should have been a bit more clear with my #2 question. I slowly doubled the water volume in the bag by removing some of the bag water, adding my own, so on and so forth. When it was time to put the fish into my first transfer tank, all the water and the fish was run through a plastic colander. Hence there was only residual water on the colander (after it was shaken out), that made it into my tank.

Wow....4 weeks after removing a fish from a low level copper environment is a long time. Crazy...hence more the reason to keep a fish in quarantine longer. My Gold Assessor is still in quarantine after about 6 weeks that excluded the TTM time. Right before my Helfrichi goes into my QT, the Assessor will go into my DT, then a larger water change. ..one fish out...one fish in.

 

[firemountain]

I disagree. An INCREASE from 1.020-1.025 is a lot for a fish to handle. If it were a decrease, there would be no issue.

Yes...I also felt that with that much of an SG increase was too much for the fish to handle initially. That's was nice about about doing TTM and quarantining, you can match the initial transfer and then slowly increase the SG the entire time the fish is in your quarantine tank for observation and the prophylactic treatment of Prazipro.

 

[snorvich]

Sorry Steve...should have been a bit more clear with my #2 question. I slowly doubled the water volume in the bag by removing some of the bag water, adding my own, so on and so forth. When it was time to put the fish into my first transfer tank, all the water and the fish was run through a plastic colander. Hence there was only residual water on the colander (after it was shaken out), that made it into my tank.

Yes, that was unclear. In that case, Prime (or similar) would be fine.

 

[firemountain]

Yes, that was unclear. In that case, Prime (or similar) would be fine.

Thanks Steve... I really appreciate it!!

 

[Spar]

this brings up a good point that I had not considered in the past. is it safe to start TTM right away on a fish that was in a non-therapeutic level of copper (<.35ppm) while at the LFS? Or should you wait a couple/few weeks to start it.

IME in the past, Ich spots show up in strong force within hours of removing the fish from the copper environment, but I am unsure if the copper impact is going to keep some parasites on the fish for longer than the expected 7 days maximum.

 

[Kidd Reef]

this brings up a good point that I had not considered in the past. is it safe to start TTM right away on a fish that was in a non-therapeutic level of copper (<.35ppm) while at the LFS? Or should you wait a couple/few weeks to start it.

IME in the past, Ich spots show up in strong force within hours of removing the fish from the copper environment, but I am unsure if the copper impact is going to keep some parasites on the fish for longer than the expected 7 days maximum.

Copper only mask's the symptoms somewhat. it doesnt remove the ich at all so your fish still has it and starting TTM right away would be beneficial. The whole copper 3-4 weeks thing is incase they have velvet or something that can't be treated with TTM (velvet kills fast.)

TTM from day one and 4 weeks of observation would be fine.

 

[snorvich]

Copper only mask's the symptoms somewhat. it doesnt remove the ich at all so your fish still has it and starting TTM right away would be beneficial. The whole copper 3-4 weeks thing is incase they have velvet or something that can't be treated with TTM (velvet kills fast.)

TTM from day one and 4 weeks of observation would be fine.

You are missing Spar's point. His question is "will a low level of copper impact the front end of the life cycle". A question to which I know of no known literature.

 

[Kidd Reef]

I disagree. An INCREASE from 1.020-1.025 is a lot for a fish to handle. If it were a decrease, there would be no issue.

Your right it can be somewhat stressful adjusting a fish to that level of salinity But i've worked at a LFS and found that as long as there isnt a jump in of .10 within 24 hrs fish can handle it fine. however i understand not everyone agree's with my method's, thats why when my advice is something i feel other reefers might not agree with i slap the "in my opinion" disclaimer on it so they can hear other people out and decide for themselves.

Just makes more sense to only have to do things right once than to have to keep mixing Bucket's of Saltwater at slightly different salinity level's to me.

 

[Kidd Reef]

You are missing Spar's point. His question is "will a low level of copper impact the front end of the life cycle". A question to which I know of no known literature.

what... if the Ich is on the fish it clearly wasn't effected by the copper and is now Deeply embedded in the fish (to the point where Copper cant reach and therefore effect it, no?) If its in ANY other stage of the Cycle than TTM would solve problem since the fish would be put in new water and a new tank and the process repeated again...Just seems like common Sense to me unless im missing something.

Unless Non lethal levels of copper make the Ich on the fish sit there and do nothing for a week or two(which i imagine is unlikely since if hyposalinity doesnt work due to the fish being embedded i can't see copper effecting them.). I dont see how it wouldnt be ok to do TTM which is what he asked as TTM pretty much ditches all other stages of ich's lifecycle

 

[snorvich]

what... if the Ich is on the fish it clearly wasn't effected by the copper and is now Deeply embedded in the fish (to the point where Copper cant reach and therefore effect it, no?) If its in ANY other stage of the Cycle than TTM would solve problem since the fish would be put in new water and a new tank and the process repeated again...Just seems like common Sense to me unless im missing something.

Unless Non lethal levels of copper make the Ich on the fish sit there and do nothing for a week or two(which i imagine is unlikely since if hyposalinity doesnt work due t the fish being embedded i can't see copper effecting them.). I dont see how it wouldnt be ok to do TTM which is what he asked as TTM pretty much ditches all other stages of ich's lifecycle

In your opinion. There is no clear understanding in the literature what a non-therapeutic dose of copper or other chemical treatment does to cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[Kidd Reef]

In your opinion. There is no clear understanding in the literature what a non-therapeutic dose of copper or other chemical treatment does to cryptocaryon irritans.

Hence me posting "unless i'm missing something"

ive also heard you recommend to multiple people to TTM then observe a new fish. never once have i seen you recommend waiting a few weeks and THEN tell them to do TTM and observation. and ive seen you tell people to not trust anyone in regards to who runs copper in their systems, which would mean they would assume most LFS are running copper and should act accordingly.

I state very few things as absolute Fact And 90% of the time my words are followed or Preluded by "In my opinion, In my experience, Unless im mistaken ETC." And i usually tell'm to take others opinions into account as well.

The effect non-theraputic levels of copper have ICH isn't even really the point. My point was as far as i know it should be OK to start TTM immediately, If thats incorrect just say it. Don't turn into "well we really dont have an scientific data that..."

dude wants to know whether TTM is safe to do within the first week of purcasing the fish, if theres no scientific Evidence to go either way then state your opinion and state why you feel its correct.. As far as i knew it was fine, So i gave mine. your debating with me but you havent even answered his question

 

[firemountain]

this brings up a good point that I had not considered in the past. is it safe to start TTM right away on a fish that was in a non-therapeutic level of copper (<.35ppm) while at the LFS? Or should you wait a couple/few weeks to start it.

IME in the past, Ich spots show up in strong force within hours of removing the fish from the copper environment, but I am unsure if the copper impact is going to keep some parasites on the fish for longer than the expected 7 days maximum.

Ironically this situation presented itself as a side note when I asked the LFS what they keep their SG at. When they said it's normally at like 1.017, I found that to be low, and then stated asking other questions, hence the low level copper environment came up as part of the discussion.

Unfortunately there was not one there at the time who could tell me the exact amount of copper they run. They used the term "low level" and not "therapeutic". So without having an exact number, it's open to some interpretation on their use of the word "low level". This was the reason for my post, and was curious if there was any half life involved that would delay the onset of the disease.

Worst case scenario....I run the fish through the TTM, and then into quarantine, for a 2 round Prazipro treatment and observation. I will then keep this fish longer in Quarantine to make sure nothing else pops up. If for some crazy reason that the signs of ICH show up (which I highly doubt), then it's back to another round of the TTM. I originally thought that if the disease would present itself, it would be within a few days.....which would then make me run a few more additional tank transfers, than the normal 4 that is performed if it did pop up.

When I initially got into this hobby over 25 years ago, I had experience with using copper as a kid in high school, and saw how harsh it can be on some fish. So....when I hear that a fish has been in a copper environment, I tend to be extra cautious moving forward.