Looking for help with SPS - what have I done wrong?

[SCreeferGuy]

Hi and thanks in advance for any help.

My problem in a nutshell is that I had multiple SPS frags (birds nest, various acros, etc) that were doing well last fall - but now have lost most everything and a new frag that is alive with decent color but NO polyp extension.

The background:

Tank is a dsa 135, running for last 7 months.

Ocean Revive T2080 (ramp up to blue 55 % white 30 %)
Reef Octopus DCS 170 skimmer
Tunze 6055 X 2
Tunze 6095 X 2
Tuzne wavemaker 6208
BRS Carbon reactor - running 1 cup


Parameters:
Salinity 1.025
Temp 77 - 78
Ca 430 - using BRS doser
ALK 8 - 9
Nitrate 5
Phos 0 (have a hard time reading the lower levels on Red Sea test kit)
Mag - 1350

Livestock:

Mag Foxface
Onespot Foxface
Melanurus wrasse
Pair clowns
Pair purple firefish
Trio B. cardinals
Tailspot blenny
Algae blenny
Yellow-head jawfish


So I was doing great in Oct-Nov. Had slowly added fish/corals and everything seemed happy. Was getting growth on a no-name acro that had fully encrusted plug in a couple months. Saw largle polyps on my dragon eye chalice at night (some over a cm tall), polyps out on brain coral. I used to feed them pieces of mysis even.

The only problem I was having then was a growing cyano issue. Tried suctioning it and it just kept spreading. Eventually (early Dec) did the lights out treatment with GREAT success. Only had lights out for 2 days, followed by 1 day lower light, then back to previous settings.

I had also added carbon and GFO before that to help lower nutrients, but I believe I over did it with the GFO. I increased the amount gradually, but ended up having 1 1/2 cups instead of the recommended 1 cup.

I tested Alk every 2 - 3 days, but near Christmas I had a spike from 7.8 to 10 in 2 days. I believe this was due to the fact the Phos went too low, corals stopped growing, stopped using Alk, and therefore I was over-dosing (even though using same amount as always).

I stopped GFO completely at the beginning of the year, but the stress of low PHos and Alk spike was too much. Saw every SPS I had bleach and die. Some quickly, others more slowly. Painful.

During this time I realized that my LPS polyps had stopped coming out as well. I figured things would recover after I stopped the GFO, but not so far. However, no LPS death or even regression - they just seem "there".

Last week I added a new birds nest to "test the waters" and it had good PE for a couple days. Then no PE at all. Colors still look good, no STN.

Also confusing to me - I have literally NO algae growing on the rocks..? I had a decent amount of various algae in the beginning and snails/foxface took care of it quickly - BUT I still could see it growing everywhere. I was cleaning the front glass nearly every 2 days, and now only have to clean it from a small growth of algae every week. I do see a light growth on the overflow wall. I have a refugium, but have never had much luck keeping any Chaeto growing there. I have some light growth of hair algae on one of the fuge walls, but nothing else. Have a few snails as CUC.

I do have coraline algae on a couple pieces of rock that has gotten very purple and spread some. I see a few spots of coraline on my tank, but not much. Last fall I had seen spots of it all over the rocks - and that was when I started adding SPS. Those spots have all gone.

I have tried to get everything back to what I was doing in the fall - same light settings, same equipment, same livestock, same feeding (2 X per day with mysis and Rod's) - as I thought that would "fix" things...

Should I:

1. Wait longer - tank still in process of recovery?

2. Try turning skimmer off at night to help nutrients build up?

3. Feed the corals? Oyster feast, Reef chili?

4. Do a much larger water change (like 50 %?) Doing 10 % weekly up until last week. Now continuous daily with DOS and same 15 g/week.

5. Something else?

Thanks again - I believe I understand what I did wrong to make this happen. BUT, am confused bc I am doing everything the same (as when corals were happy) and the corals are still struggling so much...?

 

[Ratpack]

I think the first thing I would do is feed your fish more as that will also feed the corals more. Keep the carbon and gfo out for awhile. I just added a pouch of Chemipure to my tank as I was having some small algae patches show up and my birds nest freaked out. So I removed it because I think it started to strip the food from the water.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Appreciate the suggestion...but I still can't understand why if I am doing everything (feeding, parameters, etc) EXACTLY the same as before when corals were happy and growing - that they aren't responding now :headwalls:

 

[Ratpack]

I understand, keeping SPS can be a challenge, espicially when you are doing what others are but it isn't working. I have been there myself and usually just going back to the basics is what turns the tank around.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Can't help but feel that something in the water is "off". I am going to be out of town for a couple weeks (son tank sitting) and if nothing is better when I get back I'm going for the 50 % water change...fingers crossed!

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Bump. No one else...?

 

[FishN00b83]

your tank is still kind of new and it sounds like you stripped the water of nutrients. I did t start using carbon/GFO until around the 7-8 month mark. I wanted the tank to go through the different algae cycles and make sure I had enough nutrients in the water to support corals. I could be wrong, it's just my gut feeling. I've been in the saltwater hobby maybe 3-3.5 years.

during the first few months I had no coral in the tank at all, I just let the coraline and algae do its thing. later I started to add small lps and softies and let them go for a while. I recently (in the past 8-9 months started with sps and I'm having some growth, but it's not exploding. I keep my water at 440 cal 11dkh and 1400-1500mag. the mag I keep high because of a bryopsis outbreak I had and I noticed the corals kinda liked the higher level.

I know some people throw sps in the tank day 1 after a cycle and it works for some, but I didnt want to take the chance. I think the slower you go the better with saltwater. I would take the GFO off for a bit keep up with your water changes and just watch what happens with the tank. I think your tank just needs time to mature more and let the nutrients build up.

 

[Voodoo Corals]

When I read posts that has anything to do with "tank needs time to mature" it shows me the type of information that is getting passed on forums.

Ratpack is right, go back to the basics and stay natural,no chemicals and rely on your CUC. Make that skimmer do its job!

 

[FishN00b83]

When I read posts that has anything to do with "tank needs time to mature" it shows me the type of information that is getting passed on forums.

care to elaborate on this?

 

[Cyberdude]

I've been losing frags for about 6 months. Gfo was the culprit for me. That stuff is very effective. I've removed it completely from my system. Going back to bi weekly water changes for now. Everything seems a lot less stressed.

Slow bleaching, eventually death. Had the same issue.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Maybe I missed something, but it seems like GFO should come with a warning label!!

Perhaps it is easier to work with when you have a tank full of large corals, but at the early stages it seems very easy to overshoot and poison the tank...

 

[markalot]

Appreciate the suggestion...but I still can't understand why if I am doing everything (feeding, parameters, etc) EXACTLY the same as before when corals were happy and growing - that they aren't responding now :headwalls:

They are injured from the Alk spike and take time, sometimes a LONG time to recover. Some corals can't recover and will slowly die, others just get upset for a while. Some acros go into this zombie mode where they look to be doing ok and then STN or RTN to nothing.

First off, don't run anything to reduce nutrients unless you can measure a problem. Turn the GFO off and leave it off IMO. Younger tanks tend to be easier to strip nutrients from than older tanks so you have to be a little more careful. Feed, skim, water change, keep stable, it will work itself out.

Let me demonstrate in pictures.

This acro doing well, tank was newer, KH stable, feeding heavily, only skimming, no phosphate remover, no measurable phosphates or nitrates.

October 22nd

My phosphates and nitrates slowly started to creep up but they were not a big problem, however growth was slowing and KH usage dropping and I did not react fast enough. KH spiked from 8 to 10 and I lost a few acros and injured most of the rest.

Same coral, November 10th

December 7th. Note STN on back side and poor polyp extension still but color starting to recover.

Around the end of December I finally noticed some polyp extension returning.

January 3rd

January 15th, color coming back fast now.

January 25th, more intense color

So this acro lost some skin but was able to recover. During this time I lost one to RTN, 2 to STN, and I still have some that are a nice rich BROWN.

Hopefully this helps, it can be a tough road. Time and stability will get you there IMO and obviously not every acro will recover as fast. I now run GFO to keep phosphates in check but my nitrates are sky high (30+) and I'm working on that.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Thanks Mark - glad yours bounced back! The colors are beautiful - still hoping for something to look like that in my tank.

Probably should have been more clear in post to Ratpack - I understand that everything was hit by the alk spike/GFO issues and why they don't all recover.

What I have a harder time with is why new corals are still struggling in what I would think are the same conditions as when they were doing well...? Does it take that long for Phos to build back up? I have had GFO offline for nearly 8 weeks and I've yet to see a polyp stay out on the new birds nest after the first 2 days - and I have essentially NO algae on any of the rocks...?

That's my concern - should I be doing something different now to recover from the GFO..? I feel something is "off" in terms of water quality, but I can't measure anything off, don't know what it is or how to fix it.

Thanks again for any assistance.

 

[JPMagyar]

They are injured from the Alk spike and take time, sometimes a LONG time to recover. Some corals can't recover and will slowly die, others just get upset for a while. Some acros go into this zombie mode where they look to be doing ok and then STN or RTN to nothing.

First off, don't run anything to reduce nutrients unless you can measure a problem. Turn the GFO off and leave it off IMO. Younger tanks tend to be easier to strip nutrients from than older tanks so you have to be a little more careful. Feed, skim, water change, keep stable, it will work itself out.

Let me demonstrate in pictures.

Mark,

That series of photos is remarkable. I really think it should be some kind of "sticky" showing how corals can go bad fast, but they can still bounce back.

Now having said that I will add some of my own experiences with alkalinity and folks can make of it what they will. I have a calcium reactor that supplies the bulk of my calcium and alkalinity needs, but every week or so I supplement the reactor with ESV 2 part. When I do the alkalinity swings from 7 to 10. I have been doing this for years with no ill effect. In fact I have seen alkalinity as high as 12 with no change in my corals so I'm not sure that alkalinity spikes alone are cause for coral health loss. Now pH changes above 8.5 and below 7.8 have definitely hit my tank a few times over the years and in those cases the loss of coral health was sudden and dramatic and since alkalinity swings are often accompanied by pH swings I could see a frequent correlation.

Lastly phosphate and nitrate are strange animals. I am coming to believe that these two chemicals in our tank have far greater variability and play a much greater role in reef health than we currently understand. Clearly too little of either can be just as bad as too much.

My outlook is continually changing in this hobby and maybe that is one of the elements I like most, it seems I never stop learning and that keeps things interesting. Anyways, my latest point of reference are the frequent comments you hear from successful reefkeepers: "I just keep an eye on my corals and can tell when they're not doing well."

Things like polyp extension, algae on the glass, cyano on the sand, or loss of coral color all of these provide hints that something just isn't right, and more often than not I think it has to do with nitrate and/or phosphate.

Not sure what all that rambling has to do with the OP, but I guess I'm saying it's really hard to know what went wrong so my advice is just focus on doing what's right going forward. Stick to the basics and try not to "overdo" any aspect whether GFO, water changes, or otherwise.

Does that make any sense? :crazy1:

 

[markalot]

Going back to original post for a minute, sorry if I clogged up the thread.

Parameters:
Salinity 1.025
Temp 77 - 78
Ca 430 - using BRS doser
ALK 8 - 9
Nitrate 5
Phos 0 (have a hard time reading the lower levels on Red Sea test kit)
Mag - 1350

Alk is using a doser as well, right?

Get the Salifert phosphate kit IMO and use the high rez mode (double test water and double reagents).

How is the flow, any changes?

How often do you feed. I would never ever even think about a blackout on an SPS tank to deal with an algae issue, algae does not bother me that much. Are you worried it might come back so feeding sparsely? Colorful and healthy SPS is all about feeding heavily and exporting frantically. SPS need bits of food in the water to stay healthy which can be tough to maintain and achieve a nice balance. The colors I have I attribute directly to heavy feeding, including coral food like reef roids. The high nitrates and lack of color in some corals can also be attributed to this.

My progression in this hobby has been to starve, fight with pale unhealthy corals, then feed, and feed more, suffer from high phosphate and nitrate, and finally fix export issues to lower phosphates and nitrates while I don't cut back on feeding. I'm still on the last part but even my brown corals have good polyp extension and growth.

Does that help?

 

[r1racer]

Going back to original post for a minute, sorry if I clogged up the thread.



Alk is using a doser as well, right?

Get the Salifert phosphate kit IMO and use the high rez mode (double test water and double reagents).

How is the flow, any changes?

How often do you feed. I would never ever even think about a blackout on an SPS tank to deal with an algae issue, algae does not bother me that much. Are you worried it might come back so feeding sparsely? Colorful and healthy SPS is all about feeding heavily and exporting frantically. SPS need bits of food in the water to stay healthy which can be tough to maintain and achieve a nice balance. The colors I have I attribute directly to heavy feeding, including coral food like reef roids. The high nitrates and lack of color in some corals can also be attributed to this.

My progression in this hobby has been to starve, fight with pale unhealthy corals, then feed, and feed more, suffer from high phosphate and nitrate, and finally fix export issues to lower phosphates and nitrates while I don't cut back on feeding. I'm still on the last part but even my brown corals have good polyp extension and growth.

Does that help?

So it sounds like you cycle your feeding schedule/PO4 levels up and down...is this what you're saying? Or are you saying you try to feed heavy while maintain low nitrates and PO4?

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Going back to original post for a minute, sorry if I clogged up the thread.



Alk is using a doser as well, right?

Get the Salifert phosphate kit IMO and use the high rez mode (double test water and double reagents).

How is the flow, any changes?

How often do you feed. I would never ever even think about a blackout on an SPS tank to deal with an algae issue, algae does not bother me that much. Are you worried it might come back so feeding sparsely? Colorful and healthy SPS is all about feeding heavily and exporting frantically. SPS need bits of food in the water to stay healthy which can be tough to maintain and achieve a nice balance. The colors I have I attribute directly to heavy feeding, including coral food like reef roids. The high nitrates and lack of color in some corals can also be attributed to this.

My progression in this hobby has been to starve, fight with pale unhealthy corals, then feed, and feed more, suffer from high phosphate and nitrate, and finally fix export issues to lower phosphates and nitrates while I don't cut back on feeding. I'm still on the last part but even my brown corals have good polyp extension and growth.

Does that help?

Actually Alk is not being dosed at all and tank stays in that range (Red Sea tests)...I was adding 30 mls of BRS soda ash before things went bad. I guess I'm not having to supplement bc I lost nearly all the SPS...? Was hoping that one of the signs I would see that tank was back to normal was having to start dosing again.

I was feeding once a day w mysis cube but now am feeding 1/2 cube and chuck of Rod's (some in AM, rest in afternoon) as I have more fish than in the beginning. I have not added a fish since early Nov though and do not plan on anything new there.

As for flow, have 2 Tunze 6095's (one on each end) and 2 6055's on the back wall (tank 4' X 2' X 2'). Also a Tunze wavemaker - none of this has changed since before things went bad.

I have not really started feeding the corals directly. I have some Oyster feast and have used it a few times, but never seem to notice a response/difference with it. I have to empty my skimmer every week - cup is about 1/3 full at that point, but with LOTS of solid junk stuck inside the neck. This has been pretty consistent the whole time.

The weird part to me is that in the beginning everything I put in there had good polyp extension right away...and now nothing will..?

I just can't shake the feeling that something is "off" in the water. Plan on a 50 % water change in a week or so if no changes - anything to worry about with that?

After that I will just waiting it out, but just wondered if there was something I was missing - thanks everyone!

 

[markalot]

I think dosing is your problem then, so lets review the maintenance.

How often do you do a water change and what salt mix (or KH or mix).

I almost never measure Calcium, it's just not that important as long as you are doing balanced dosing and making sure your magnesium stays in range. edit: I do test calcium occasionally to make sure it's staying between 400 and 500.

I test Alk and then dose both Alk and Calcium parts of a 2-part based on the Alk consumption. If no Alk is being consumed I would not dose. If calcium starts to fall Alk will fall as well as the system is going to naturally maintain some balance.

Doing this my calcium ha ssettled out to about 450 and Alk stays at 8 dosing 75ml of each part 2-part a day. I use TLF 2-part but any balanced 2-part will do.

I also suspect your Alk test kit, I would get another one to verify. I tried Red Sea Pro and didn't like it so I switched to Salifert but still use the Red Sea bottle holders and bottles.

 

[Voodoo Corals]

care to elaborate on this?

Exactly my point.....

 

[FishN00b83]

Exactly my point.....

idk if youre trolling or not...