Looking for ideas, help, info, tips, etc. on partnering with LFS

havingfunin08

New member
Hello to all. I will not go into to much detail here but, There is a LFS that I have help out in bringing them business by new customers and selling for them. I have many different ideas and such but, I was looking for some helpful tips, ideas and info on things that I need/should know about owning a fish store.

a little info on them--
They are already up and running and have been for just under 2 years. They sell saltwater stuff only and part of the business is a maintenance side. I am not sure about their accounts or anything on the financial end. I really am looking for things I should know and look for before I sit down and start discussing things with them. So any help would be greatly appreciated. The reason for the asking me to partner is, They know I have the knowledge and know how to find/ bring new business and I have knowledge of the Internet( they dont fool with computers much). I also have a few good connections and I believe the owners husband is retired and he doesn't want to run around doing the maintenance nor the setups and breakdowns anymore.
 
Well, the fish stuff knowledge, while useful for doing this as a hobby, is far secondary to understanding the business model and the financial side of the business. If you are planning to invest money, or a significant portion of your time (that is turning your hobby into your job), you had best understand the business side intimately. In general, the maintenance side of the business will need to support the brick and mortar inventory side of the business. Very, very few LFS have a working business model, especially at the moment.
 
Thank you for your input.
I will be sitting down to talk with them this coming week sometime. I know they have a maintenance side and I know they have business. How much, I dont know. Is it enough to cover the brick and motar, I dont know. I will know more about there finacail standing when I sit and talk.
 
As a test, ask them what their "breakeven point" revenue amount is for a given month. Roughly, it is their total overhead times two.
 
Can you please explain a little more. Why is it x2 and if she gives me something dif. what shoud I think?
Thanks
 
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Not sure I would get involved with a business that has only been around for under 2 years. At the same time they may not realize that first years are absolutely the hardest. I would even say first 5 years are hell. At least it was for us and back when we got into it the economy was good. Right now is a very risky time for this kind of a business. In the retail store side we have never in the last 12 years faced these kind of challenges and so much competition. Back in the day we used to do on average 2 or 3 new full tank setup sales and installations a week. We are lucky to do that in a month now. I used to gauge this hobby by how many new hobbyists came into my shop and asked for help with getting an aquarium and the stuff for it. So what has changed? We are now dealing with a smart consumer, bad economy (lack of money) and online big box stores.

Smart consumer: Its actually a good thing in most cases. But the few drawbacks do hit the bottom line for a lfs. In the old days hobbyists new and old looked to their local fish store for advice and education. Us being fish, hobbyist outlook type of a shop we had a following of people that looked up to you as a mentor. Those people were loyal and and trusting. Without taking advantage of that we would earn their trust by giving them all we can and making sure each person had a successful aquarium and understood that is only successful because of information learned from the guy at the lfs. That is going away now. Everyone is smart if they can read a few forums and websites. They can compare prices of an online warehouse to a lfs. Those people will go to a store to get free advice if needed and buy their stuff elsewhere.

Bad economy: It hard now days all around. We had a few businesses and one residential clients stop our services. One restaurant owner said to me "I don't know how I am going to pay for my next order of beef, and without hamburgers I am out on the street. And you wanna ask me about an aquarium. Get this thing out of here" Can you blame him? I have another restaurant that just stiffed me on 1,200 and at this point I really don't know if I will keep doing his tank and allow his bill to pile up or just cut my losses and get on with my life. An office that has some layoffs this winter got rid of a 7year old tank. The lady in charge said it wasn't fare for us to spend money on an aquarium and have people loose jobs because we can't pay payroll. On top of the service, the shop is feeling the same thing from walk-in customers.

Competition: In all the years I have been doing this right now is the most competition we have ever had. Large scale online vendors are selling supplies directly from manufacturer with low prices. Sometimes they sell some supplies bellow wholesale price. In order to keep relative prices we offer online product price plus shipping. So that instead of buying online you can buy from us today with no wait and it will be about the same price, maybe dollar or two plus or minus. The hard part is that really takes just about most profit away. Without profit on most supplies you have to make money elsewhere. A side from the big box sites and stores, there are millions of little guys and the ebay frag shops. A whole bunch of new lfs and service businesses have popped up all around. The attitude of how hard can it be, I clean my tank at home so I can charge other people to do it for them.

Please don't get the idea that its all bad. I personally have been raised from a lfs. My parents have ran a shop and paid for shelter and raised me and my siblings from it. I have been in business for some years now and have been living of it. Can't say that I am well off but I am not starving. All in all this industry is changing with the times. I have learned to make just a little bit but from many different angles. Being able to change with the hobby and the times is the key.

Perhaps the only thing keeping us a float is being in this a while and having a good base of clients and experience. If I was facing a new venture, not sure I would get into it from scratch right now.
 
Thank you so much for your input! This will def. give me some things to think about before I make a decision.

As far as Competition goes, There is only 1 other fish store within a 200m radius of them. I know it will be a uphill battle with the online sellers. I do have a plan for that though.

As far as the Bad economy, I have some ideas about bringing money in with the bad economy that I have proven to them and was able to cut down on there expenses a little.

As far as "Smart consumer:" Well times are changing and there's not much I can do but, except, embrace, work with it and hopefully somehow use it to my advantage. ( I have a couple ideas)

Thank you again for taking the time to reply and share your thoughts. If you have any more please feel free to post them
 
I am not saying that all my ideas will work but, I do have a game plan. As you stated above this is a bad time to get into any business right now. That is why I am here asking for help to see the overall/big pic. so I can make the best decision possible.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15207248#post15207248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by havingfunin08
Can you please explain a little more. Why is it x2 and if she gives me something dif. what shoud I think?
Thanks

Well part of that posting was a test for you. You need to figure out why the guideline I gave you was right. But in reading your other posts, you clearly want to do this despite advice to the contrary. If you are investing money, or a significant amount of your time, I think this will be a great learning experience for you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15214031#post15214031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by snorvich
Well part of that posting was a test for you. You need to figure out why the guideline I gave you was right. But in reading your other posts, you clearly want to do this despite advice to the contrary. If you are investing money, or a significant amount of your time, I think this will be a great learning experience for you.

Thanks for your input. Well I have to say I am excited to have the opportunity but, I have not made up my mind yet. I dont have enough info to make that decision yet. I was just saying that I do have some ideas that they and I believe would work (to some point). That does not mean I am going to do it no matter what.
 
It is a tough economy for any small business. I an understand the companies described above letting the tank go if they had to let people go. It's a tough time for everyone business owners and workers alike.

I do believe that if you are willing to take the risks associated with new business ventures and are educated on the risks you may face, go for it. You don't want to look back and say what if... Hopefully there are other people out there in the hobby that would rather see a local business survive than save a few bucks here and there by buying online.
 
Personally, I'd like to see the bigger stores get ran into the ground, especially by a bunch of "Little Guys". Most of the big stores hire people at $8 an hour, and how does that help the economy? What's going to happen is that the big stores will run every little guy in to the ground and then corner the market and raise their prices to what you had. If I were you, I'd focus on doing what you do best, either aquarium maintenance in the store or the business side. You can't do it all. Order what is selling and not what you think will sell. Locate yourself where people will visit, not because the mall is there.
Another thing you should do is keep a full time job, just in case things get slow. You can't start a new business and expect to make a lot of money. It's very tiring, but if you really want this to work, it may be worth it. My wife and I work a lot of hours. I have the money to get the things I want. Unfortunately, I don't have the time for a high end saltwater tank. Eventually, I will be getting there, and when I do, watch out "Little Guys"!!! I do all of my purchases at the big stores just for the fact that I don't have a LFS in my area.
Another note, people are getting smarter, so they are buying better things. Keep that in mind! I'm not a business person, I am the buyer. I know what I want and I'm not going to let the business person tell me otherwise . More food for thought.
 
Before getting involved with a business ask to see their business plan, past year's expenses and earnings. Find out what percentage of their profit is invested or saved for future needs such as slow periods or unforeseen problems. What kind of advertising do they do and what's the advertising budget? Bring these figures/documents to a consultant or ask if a professional will look at them. Anthony Calfo did so for me. Unfortunately I was so eager and excited that I did NOT heed his advice.

I made the mistake of getting involved with an LFS that was having difficulties. I saw potential. The business was about 6 years old and had a great set-up and location. Unfortunately, a number of unforeseen events coupled with a primary owner who wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was (business wise)resulted in the business closing the following year. This cost me in excess of $40k.

Do not get involved if you cannot afford the loss. I was able to absorb some of it, but now have some additional debt.

Do not expect an immediate income.

Don't invest without sufficient capital. Putting a little money in solves a few immediate problems or provides a short term boost, but leaves you in the lurch in the long term.

You mentioned that there were no other nearby competitors. Make sure this isn't because the local economy/interest won't support the industry.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250210#post15250210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Monkeyfish
Before getting involved with a business ask to see their business plan, past year's expenses and earnings. Find out what percentage of their profit is invested or saved for future needs such as slow periods or unforeseen problems. What kind of advertising do they do and what's the advertising budget? Bring these figures/documents to a consultant or ask if a professional will look at them. Anthony Calfo did so for me. Unfortunately I was so eager and excited that I did NOT heed his advice.

I made the mistake of getting involved with an LFS that was having difficulties. I saw potential. The business was about 6 years old and had a great set-up and location. Unfortunately, a number of unforeseen events coupled with a primary owner who wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was (business wise)resulted in the business closing the following year. This cost me in excess of $40k.

Do not get involved if you cannot afford the loss. I was able to absorb some of it, but now have some additional debt.

Do not expect an immediate income.

Don't invest without sufficient capital. Putting a little money in solves a few immediate problems or provides a short term boost, but leaves you in the lurch in the long term.

You mentioned that there were no other nearby competitors. Make sure this isn't because the local economy/interest won't support the industry.

Great advice here. Always assume that whatever money you invest is gone because the odds are high that it will be. Having done consulting in this area, I can assure you that it is NOT a trivial endeavor in the best of times.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250210#post15250210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Monkeyfish
Before getting involved with a business ask to see their business plan, past year's expenses and earnings. Find out what percentage of their profit is invested or saved for future needs such as slow periods or unforeseen problems. What kind of advertising do they do and what's the advertising budget? Bring these figures/documents to a consultant or ask if a professional will look at them. Anthony Calfo did so for me. Unfortunately I was so eager and excited that I did NOT heed his advice.

I made the mistake of getting involved with an LFS that was having difficulties. I saw potential. The business was about 6 years old and had a great set-up and location. Unfortunately, a number of unforeseen events coupled with a primary owner who wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was (business wise)resulted in the business closing the following year. This cost me in excess of $40k.

Do not get involved if you cannot afford the loss. I was able to absorb some of it, but now have some additional debt.

Do not expect an immediate income.

Don't invest without sufficient capital. Putting a little money in solves a few immediate problems or provides a short term boost, but leaves you in the lurch in the long term.

You mentioned that there were no other nearby competitors. Make sure this isn't because the local economy/interest won't support the industry.

Hi, First of all thanks for the responses!
As far as advertising, I was told they have not advertised except the first six months in business. I do know that she will start advertising again. I have know idea what the budget will be yet.

As far as the money goes and expecting immediate income

I will be hired as the store manager and be paid a weekly $$ amount but would still be a 50/50 owner. ( LLc. )
So you ask why pay a owner to work in there own store? She doesn't want to do it any longer (she is burnt out). So thats only fair if I am doing most of the (physical work). Now, dont get me wrong she has stated that she will def. still be working just no where near what she was doing. Actually who every works that week will get the pay for that week.
For example: If I cant work or need off a week then she will work and just take that weeks pay. Plus I need the money to pay my monthly bills and she offered to do it.
Up front cost for me would be zero dollars. She is willing to self finance at a very low apr.(under 5%) She told me that she had a investor that would buy half of the store but, she would rather sell it to someone who is willing to do the work. (all the investor wants to do is hand over the $$ and collect the benefits and put no physical work in) She cant handle it alone any longer. Not that she is making all kinds of money but, with the way her spouse is, she will not bring in much more unless someone is willing to do more work. Basically Her husband is getting to old and has a bad back and will not take on any more work. He cant handle the tank setups, tear downs and maintenance any more. She cant handle any more business because she cant run the store by herself. Once she gets someone who will do/handle more maintenance and is willing to run the store (work) she says it will only grow.
So I ask her why not just hire a store employee.
Well if she hires someone, she would be taking a risk of them taking some of her accounts/maintenance among the other normal things small business owners fear with hiring people.
This way she doesn't have to worry about those things. (so she says)
Well as far as nearby competitors goes.
There is a market and it is growing. The only other fish store has been there for about 20 years but, it does fresh and saltwater. If that makes a diff. other than that the closest fish store is about 120 miles. It is growing pretty good in the area.

As I said before, I have not made up my mind yet, just simply trying to see all angels and get some important input and to see things that I may have not known to look for or see.
So thanks to those who have responded!
Any more ideas, questions, concerns, etc. please post.
 
I strongly suggest having a lawyer review any formal agreement you might draw up with her and I strongly suggest that having a formal agreement is in both of your best interests.
 
Agreed. Whatever you decide, get it in writing and make sure your ownership % of the store is stated along with your responsibilities. I find the 50% owner, but paid if you work that week a bit odd. If you own half the store then you should be entitled to the profits (and responsible for the debts) from "that half." I don't see why she would want to pay you, not make a profit (if she doesn't work that week), but still be 50% liable for whatever you do. Maybe I'm missing something.

If you do go ahead with this I recommend adding freshwater and cichlids to your stock. Although the profit will not be huge for basic FW fish; every freshwater customer is a potential saltwater customer. There is a nice bit of profit to be made from African Cichlids. You may also want to look into the local herp market. Reptiles are easy to care for, don't take up a lot of space and bring in a nice profit.
 
I told her I was laid off from my job and have been on unemployment and need to find a job so I can pay my bills. That's when she told me to add up what I needed to survive on and she would see if she could afford to pay that amount so I would be able to work and make money to pay my bills.
Like I said before, I dont have to have any money up front. I do know that she has said that there will be a contract written up for both of us with lawyers and all. (everything legal) She said I will be a 50% owner on paper but, for any reason things go south or I want out, I will still owe her my portion that we have agreed on for the loan. (remember, she is self financing and I am not going through a bank) so I owe her and not the store or bank. I will also have to pay her a monthly $$ amount for the loan.

Basically, She will pay me to work like any other person with a job, That way I have income/job. Now that I have money to pay my bills and her/the loan back, I can start paying her for the loan and still have money to live on. . Then at the end of the year if there is profit then we still split it 50/50.....If that makes sense

She has to work OR she has to pay someone to do it. She does not want to work as much as she is now so, she feels that it would be in her best interest to hire/pay me (a part owner). Someone that she does not have to worry about stealing customer, money, etc. from her and that will help grow the business not just work for a weekly paycheck.
Does this make any sense?


I could be wrong but, I would think that if she is offering to pay me a weekly salary, she has got to be making something or she would not be able to do this. right?
 
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i'm not sure that this plan sounds very secure, for you.

this sounds like a slippery slope you are getting into. i work with contracts all day and i can tell you that the one you are going to sign will be completely one-sided. you aren't bringing anything to the table. sure your labor counts for something, but then again she could just hire someone to do what you plan on doing, right?

i could go on, but i would simply suggest that you take the job as manager and make some money and pay your bills. simply because there is no way that you can move into a business venture with no money and ever plan to come out on top. take the job [and find a second] and save what you can. when you have saved enough, give her what you can and purchase your share outright.

two bba's, an mba, and many years in business have taught me make sure i always have the upper-hand, you should do the same. jmho.

~alex
 
Thanks for the input.
I do have some things to bring to the table other than just labor. I have made her about $1200 extra last month and about $1800 extra this month. I do have a plan and many ideas, some proven some not.

As far as a one sided contract, I have expressed some of my concerns and she has told me that she will be willing to put what I need from her into this contract to make me feel comfortable.

example: I asked about her selling her 50% down the road and then I am stuck with a partner or investor I do not want. She said she wold put it in the contract that she would not sell for a min. of 4 years and she must offer it to me before anyone else.
 
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