Looking to Upgrade- ?'s on Large Tanks

[gofor100]

Hello Everyone,

Not to bore you with the details, but my wife and I are looking to move into our "permanent home" in the next 1 to 2 years, and me being the opportunist that I am, figured that would be an excellent excuse to upgrade my tank.

I haven't yet concluded whether this will be an open top with the lighting suspended above or enclosed (with a canopy), but either way, I think that I prefer having splash guards around the top (since I live in earthquake land/CA) and have decided that the tank will be approximately 72"L X 30"W X 30"T. So here's a few questions...

1) Having said that, is Euro-Bracing probably the best (maybe only) bracing method I could go with?

2) I've determined that the tank will be made of glass (not a fan of easy scratches since I like having sandbeds), but have yet to decide whether it is even worth doing starfire glass or standard glass. This will probably be my final upgrade (I know we all say that, and don't mean it, but my wife will literally kill me if I go much bigger than this... :blown: ), so I'm definitely willing to put down some extra money if the starfire makes any appreciable difference when not standing side by side with standard glass. Also, how thick should the glass be? Opinions/Thoughts?

3) With a tank this long (72"), and me keeping a mixed reef (with SPS) does anyone have any suggestions on powerheads that are strong enough to provide sufficient wave action if placed on opposite ends of the tank? I'm assuming I'll get a lot of Tunze and Ecotech powerhead answers, but wanted to see what specific ones you guys have on your tanks (heard of the new MP60 and wasn't sure if dropping some benjamins on that is worth it rather than getting a couple of MP40's). Also, I'm not thinking of drilling returns into the back wall of the tank, but rather put some Korallias and/or Tunze powerheads placed along the back for constant flow into the rocks (mainly to save on energy costs), but can be swayed if you guys feel that it would be more energy efficient to drill some return lines in the back and have one or two external pumps feed them.

4) With a tank this tall (30") and a sandbed of probably varying between 2-4 inches, would 250watt MH lamps along with T-5 supplemental lighting be strong enough to keep Maxima/Crocea clams at the bottom? (I might just ask this question in the clam forum, but figured I would throw it out there). If not, I might make the tank slightly shorter since I don't want to step up to the 400watt MH and prefer the look of clams on the sandbed.

5) What dimensions do you guys have on your overflow and where are they placed (i.e., one center overflow, two off-centered overflows, etc.)? Also, what size bulkhead would you recommend considering that I will probably be looking at a pretty high tank volume turnover rate.

Sorry this was so long post, but obviously, I have A LOT of questions!

 

[alton]

Unless you are going with DSB, I would go shorter to stay with 250MH
Tunze Wavemaker rocks my Marineland 300, I am sure it would rock yours

 

[gofor100]

Thanks alton... I already have my clams attached to some rocks that would be placed on the sand (probably on the higher parts of the sand, say 4 to 5 inches off the bottom), but might be swayed to reduce the tank height to say 28" so that I don't lose the height that'll give me some interesting aquascaping options. That way, the clam to water surface would be more like 21" (taking into consideration a depth of roughly 4 inches of sand, and another 2 inches or so of rock, and another couple of inches of clam shell).

I've heard some good things about the Tunze Wavemaker, but that thing has a pretty decent footprint (at least compared to PH's) doesn't it? How do you make it so that it isn't so conspicuous looking in the tank?

 

[serpentman]

Hello Everyone,

Not to bore you with the details, but my wife and I are looking to move into our "permanent home" in the next 1 to 2 years, and me being the opportunist that I am, figured that would be an excellent excuse to upgrade my tank.

I haven't yet concluded whether this will be an open top with the lighting suspended above or enclosed (with a canopy), but either way, I think that I prefer having splash guards around the top (since I live in earthquake land/CA) and have decided that the tank will be approximately 72"L X 30"W X 30"T. So here's a few questions...

1) Having said that, is Euro-Bracing probably the best (maybe only) bracing method I could go with?

IME, Eurobracing is not your only option. However, since you live in the land of shaking and moving, you may want to consider it for additional structural protection.

2) I've determined that the tank will be made of glass (not a fan of easy scratches since I like having sandbeds), but have yet to decide whether it is even worth doing starfire glass or standard glass. This will probably be my final upgrade (I know we all say that, and don't mean it, but my wife will literally kill me if I go much bigger than this... :blown: ), so I'm definitely willing to put down some extra money if the starfire makes any appreciable difference when not standing side by side with standard glass. Also, how thick should the glass be? Opinions/Thoughts?

If this is your final upgrade, I would definitely go with starfire glass. IMO, although not a big deal in smaller tanks, the added clarity does make a difference in a larger tank which typically has thicker glass. As far as thickness goes, most reputable tank manufacturers will factor that in and build accordingly. FWIW, my 300 (72x36x27) is 1/2" glass with a 3/4" bottom.

3) With a tank this long (72"), and me keeping a mixed reef (with SPS) does anyone have any suggestions on powerheads that are strong enough to provide sufficient wave action if placed on opposite ends of the tank? I'm assuming I'll get a lot of Tunze and Ecotech powerhead answers, but wanted to see what specific ones you guys have on your tanks (heard of the new MP60 and wasn't sure if dropping some benjamins on that is worth it rather than getting a couple of MP40's). Also, I'm not thinking of drilling returns into the back wall of the tank, but rather put some Korallias and/or Tunze powerheads placed along the back for constant flow into the rocks (mainly to save on energy costs), but can be swayed if you guys feel that it would be more energy efficient to drill some return lines in the back and have one or two external pumps feed them.

I'm a big fan of powerheads. Although they are ugly when compared to a closed loop, they are easily replaced/upgraded. If you are going to have the tank for a long while, this will give you more flexibility as technology evolves. As far as what pumps to use, Tunzes will give you more penetrating flow while Vortechs move similar water volume over a wider pattern. I'm a much bigger fan of the prior for reliability reasons.

4) With a tank this tall (30") and a sandbed of probably varying between 2-4 inches, would 250watt MH lamps along with T-5 supplemental lighting be strong enough to keep Maxima/Crocea clams at the bottom? (I might just ask this question in the clam forum, but figured I would throw it out there). If not, I might make the tank slightly shorter since I don't want to step up to the 400watt MH and prefer the look of clams on the sandbed.

With the proper reflectors, you should be ok. IME, lighting is more a function of efficiency than overall wattage output. A 250W with a lumenarc, lumenbright or lumenmax can outperform a 400W with a simple spider reflector.

5) What dimensions do you guys have on your overflow and where are they placed (i.e., one center overflow, two off-centered overflows, etc.)? Also, what size bulkhead would you recommend considering that I will probably be looking at a pretty high tank volume turnover rate.

I have two corner overflows. Hindsight being 20/20, I think I would have considered a coast to coast system. I use 4 drains on my system. 2 are full blown siphons (see "Herbie Method") and the other two are emergency drains. All are 1" and I have no issues with putting 2000+ GPH through the display.

Sorry this was so long post, but obviously, I have A LOT of questions!

Ask away. Its a big project. Better to get it right the first time!

 

[gofor100]

Serpentman:

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to go through each question.

Secondly, I could not agree with your signature more (in reference to it being "easier to ask for forgiveness than permission)

1) Yeah, I figured Eurobracing would probably be the best option for me, I just wasn't sure if there was any other bracing methods out there I didn't know about since I haven't been in the market of buying a tank in a while. So unless anyone else has suggestions, I think Eurobracing is the way I'm going on this one.

2) Still on the fence with the starphire/starfire (however it is spelled)... I guess I won't truly know until I can see a similar sized tank in person with both types of glass. I'll do some comparison shopping on this topic. Also, once I have the tank schematics, I'll see what the price difference is between the two on a tank this size (I would do the 3 viewing panels starphire) and that might change my tune (depending on the price difference). Did you end up going with starphire with your 300 gallon? If so, any pics? Does starphire scratch any easier than "regular" glass?

3) As far as powerheads go, this is what I was thinking. Start with one MP40 (or MP60) on each side of the tank for the wave motion (and maybe add one on each side if/when needed). And then probably 2 or 3 Tunze PH's on constant flow running along the back of the tank to try and remedy any deadspots. The reason I was looking at the Ecotech PH's is there minimal profile, which would be less noticeable than a Tunze sticking out like a sore thumb on the side of the tank. Plus, as far as going the powerhead route, I'm trying to be somewhat mindful of energy consumption (even though I'm using MH lights) in setting up this tank.

4) I should be good with my reflectors... they are monsters (I have 3 lumenmax elites DE right now and might add a 4th for the updgrade). Add in probably 2 36" T-5 fixtures for supplemental lighting and a "sunrise/sunset effect", and that'll essentially be my lighting. I was thinking of possibly experimenting with LED's, but if anything, those would just be supplemental and not the main source of light.

5) I too am thinking of using the "Herbie Method"... my wife gets quite annoyed with all of the current noise (although I find it calming at times). What do you think would be the benefit of having a "coast-to-coast" system (I'm assuming that means having an overflow that runs along the whole length of the tank)?

Thanks again for all of the info/suggestions!

-Chad

 

[curthendrix]

Starfire does scratch easier than "regular" glass but on a 1/2" or 3/4" glass it will make a noticeable difference in clarity.

Have you chosen a tank manufacturer?

 

[gofor100]

Have you chosen a tank manufacturer?

Not yet... several of my LFS work with LeeMar, but I've also talked to a few others locally that can offer a cheaper price (however, I'm not sure how much the product quality suffers from this).

I'm open to suggestions though!

 

[alton]

I have the wavemaker next to one of the over flows. And I do not agree with Starphire scratches easier than non. I have a 29 with 3 sides being starphire with no scratches in ten years. It was built by the old Oceanic custom tank builders which is now DSA.
Where you notice the difference between Starphire and regular is when you take a picture with a very good camera, big difference.

 

[serpentman]

My tank has Starphire on the front panel. I've not seen any indicator that its easier to scratch than the side panels.

I do agree that the Vortech's offer a much lower profile. However, I will also caution that the few that I have run, were unacceptably too loud to me. When run at constant speed, I could tune them out. However when they are variable, they drove me nuts, lol. It really depends on your threshold for ambient noise as some folks absolutely love them.

If you don't have first hand experience with them, I'd suggest finding a local reefer or LFS that is running each type of pump and check them out in action.

 

[BigOldReef]

I don't know how tall you are. But reaching the bottom of a 30" tank can be troublesome.

I had a 30" tank. And I had to lie on top of the tank and get my shoulder into the tank to just barely reach the bottom (with a sand bed).

My current tank is 28" deep. However, it is an open top tank with a 2.5" splashgaurd and that makes reaching into the tank much easier.

My tank has an 18g overflow. Which contains 2 2" overflows. The flow through the tank is about 2000gph. On top of which I have a 26g surge tank which dumps into the tank every 90 seconds or so, and the overflows reduce the extra surge of water quickly.

 

[gofor100]

I don't know how tall you are. But reaching the bottom of a 30" tank can be troublesome.

I had a 30" tank. And I had to lie on top of the tank and get my shoulder into the tank to just barely reach the bottom (with a sand bed).

My current tank is 28" deep. However, it is an open top tank with a 2.5" splashgaurd and that makes reaching into the tank much easier.

My tank has an 18g overflow. Which contains 2 2" overflows. The flow through the tank is about 2000gph. On top of which I have a 26g surge tank which dumps into the tank every 90 seconds or so, and the overflows reduce the extra surge of water quickly.

Yeah... that's a good point... I'm only 5'10" and I just measured my arms and they are little less than 28" long each, so that might just narrow down the height of the tank

Having said that, I'll probably do a 28" tall tank with about an average of 4" sandbed...

Also, onto the overflow issue, what dimension is the 18 gallon overflow and where are they placed in your tank (I'm assuming they are either off-centered or in the corners)?

 

[gofor100]

My tank has Starphire on the front panel. I've not seen any indicator that its easier to scratch than the side panels.

I do agree that the Vortech's offer a much lower profile. However, I will also caution that the few that I have run, were unacceptably too loud to me. When run at constant speed, I could tune them out. However when they are variable, they drove me nuts, lol. It really depends on your threshold for ambient noise as some folks absolutely love them.

If you don't have first hand experience with them, I'd suggest finding a local reefer or LFS that is running each type of pump and check them out in action.

That's a great point... although I've heard mixed reviews by people that use the Vortechs... some say they take a while to get quiet, while others say they NEVER get quiet. I'll definitely have to check out a few tanks running each type to see what would be acceptable to me (and more importantly the wife).

Back to your overflow idea... you were saying that if you could do it over again that you would run one along the whole back of the tank? Was there a particular reason? Sounds like an interesting concept since it would make for a cleaner look, but then again, you would be losing that space in your tank...

 

[serpentman]

I find most commercial column size overflows are designed for smaller tanks. I don't feel they adequately skim the surface of a lage tank plus they also take up valuable real estate. If I could do it over, I'd go with an external coast to coast.

As far as the tank height. My tank sits on a stand that is 40" tall. The tank itself is 27" tall. I'm 6' and cannot really reach the bottom without getting soaked. Because of the tank width, even if I could, I'd only be able to reach the bottom for the first 6" or so. 80% of the time, anything that needs to be done in the tank, I do with tongs.

 

[gofor100]

I find most commercial column size overflows are designed for smaller tanks. I don't feel they adequately skim the surface of a lage tank plus they also take up valuable real estate. If I could do it over, I'd go with an external coast to coast.

As far as the tank height. My tank sits on a stand that is 40" tall. The tank itself is 27" tall. I'm 6' and cannot really reach the bottom without getting soaked. Because of the tank width, even if I could, I'd only be able to reach the bottom for the first 6" or so. 80% of the time, anything that needs to be done in the tank, I do with tongs.

Good suggestion on the "tongs"... I guess you have to learn how to effectively use them with precision.

Also an interesting concept with the external coast to coast overflow... are there many tank manufacturers that do this? I'm liking this idea more and more now... any drawbacks that anyone can think of?

 

[serpentman]

You'd be surprised with what you can do with a little practice. I do almost all my coral placements, etc. with them.

I do know some will. I know Marineland will do it. Not sure what they charge. The only drawback other than expense that I can think of is it makes it a little more difficult to ship. Also glass overflow boxes are heavy so they need to be adhered correctly.

 

[gofor100]

I do know some will. I know Marineland will do it. Not sure what they charge. The only drawback other than expense that I can think of is it makes it a little more difficult to ship. Also glass overflow boxes are heavy so they need to be adhered correctly.

A question I just thought of is what would be the main difference between an external overflow (which seems like some tank manufacturers won't do) and just asking a tank manufacturer to build an internal overlow box running along the whole backside of the tank, and then take that into consideration when figuring out how wide/deep you want your tank? For example, I'm looking for at least 30 inches from the front to back of the tank, so if my overflow is going to be about 5 inches (front to back), then I could just ask for a 35" wide tank with an overflow running across the back?

Does this make any sense... if it doesn't, why not?

 

[slattery]

go with acrylic you wont be disappointed

 

[curthendrix]

A 5"x72" overflow is quite large. Ive had both glass and acrylic tanks and would strongly recommend glass if it's a viable option.

 

[crsaz]

I guess I won't truly know until I can see a similar sized tank in person with both types of glass

Im sure one of you lfs will have a sample, my lfs has small square of each about 1/2" thick, really seeing them side my side gives you an idea on how much different they really are. pics on the web really dont help much.

 

[dpg]

Starfire is definitely clearer when there is no water in the tank, is there really a big difference when there is??