Need advice on possible tank restart

[bemerritt]

Warning, long post ahead...

First off, I apologize for how long this post may end up being, so hopefully you have a fresh cup of coffee. I thought about posting this on the general forums, but figured I'll end up asking some more local questions so I decided to bug the locals first.

The Story:
- 7 months ago I moved into my new house that has a 200 gallon in-wall acrylic tank. Having no previous saltwater experience, I turned to reef central (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2384658) and thegrun visited me to help me get my running start on a system that was already up and running.
- After one service by the current fish maintenance company, I took over and haven't talked to them since
- Over the last 6 months I slowly started turning the tank from a FOWLR to a more LPS tank.
- Last weekend attended my first RAP and brought home tons of goodies
- Monday night I had my "œbest" parameters to date
- Tuesday night my tank had its first confirmed casualty (Bristletooth tang)
- Wednesday night it appears my Blue tang has ich (Blue tang)
- Early Thursday morning while I couldn't sleep, thoughts of a tank "œrestart" start to take form
Original Tank Setup
- ~200 gallon DT
- ~100 gallon sump
- Chiller
- 2 sock filters
- ~3000 gph return pump
- No powerheads in DT
- 2 AI sol Blue
- Unknown amount of live rock
- It appears to be a deep sand bed (never measured it) of crushed coral

Original Stock List
- Blue tang (large)
- Yellow tang (med/large)
- Purple tang (med/large)
- Bristletooth Tomini tang (med/large)
- Hawkfish
- 4 damsels
- 2 clowns (female 3+ inches)
- Royal Gamma
Tank Timeline:
- April "“ Take over tank.
o Alk 7.2
o Cal 500
o Mag 1350
o Nitrate 25
o Phosphate .6
- May
o Add some rasta polyps
o Start to bring the phosphates down with GFO
o Add two small powerheads to DT
- June-July
o Phosphates are around .1, Nitrates still at 25 ppm
o Add various snails
o Add Apex control
o Maintaining steady Alk and Cal with dosing
- August-September
o Add Hammer, Torch, frogspawn, Duncan, rbta, starfish over the course of the month. All coral dipped in lugol's.
o Start with half the recommended bio pellets to try and bring nitrates down. Ouput routed to skimmer input
o By the end of September, the tank looks the best it has been
o Add to Jebao RW15 pumps to the tank
- October
o Add 2 more cups of biopellets, increase flow in reactor
o All dosing is automated by the apex and BRS dosers
o Move 1% daily water changes
o Attend RAP! Came home with 4 torches, 2 octospawns, 2 acans, 1 lobo, 2 zoas, candy cane coral, brain coral and some turbo snails. Dipped all coral in their own lugol's cup and rinsed off in tank water prior to putting into the tank. No more than 3 corals got rinsed off in the same tank water. I also moved around a bunch of rock, removed rock and placed it in the sump. Had my hands in the water for a long, long time.
o Latest parameters 8 dkh, cal 420, mag 1325, phosphate .03(hanna), nitrate 25ppm.

Hopefully you are still with me. The above was also a nice exercise for myself in order to summarize what has happened.

So why did the fish die/get ich?
- Increased stress with moving of the rocks. I doubt this could have killed a fish within days, but it definitely could cause stress which led to ich.
- Biopellets stripping the water of nutrients too fast. Although my nitrate test (salifert) still reads ~25ppm. I also still see some slight algae growth. Maybe time to try a second test kit.
- The tank has always been infected. Probably my leading candidate. For a couple months I have noticed white stringy poo coming from one of the clowns. Read it is a parasite, and that you can either treat it or hope it goes away. I didn't have a qt setup, so I decided to ride it out. I also have no clue the history of the fish, how they were QT'd (if they even were) and the age. Additionally, a month ago the royal gamma looked as if it was on its way out, I actually tried to catch it, but it hid in the rocks. I assumed it was dead, but three weeks later it emerged. A little more shy, but no other noticeable changes. It has now been missing for 3 weeks again.

Plan moving forward
- Remove all fish from DT. I will most likely setup a 10 gallon that I have as a QT and place the hawkfish in it, since it is my wife's favorite fish. As for the others, I don't really have the room to QT 3 adult tangs, so I will try and sell these. Obviously I will advertise the conditions that they are in. Anyone want a good deal on some possibly sick tangs???
- Once all of the fish are out, the 10 week countdown begins. I presume this means any live rock/sand that was in the tank must not see any fish for 10 weeks to ensure that the parasite(s) are not still present. Is that correct?
- In the meantime, I will turn an 80 gallon tank I have into a holding tank for my corals. I will need to plumb this with a bean animal (is it possible to plumb a bean animal styIe drain without an overflow? Since there are no fish, what is the risk?) I will use a 55 gallon I have as a sump and set this up as a separate system. I will bring over as much live rock that will comfortably fit to keep the bio filtration working. Use AI sols, skimmer etc from old system.
- Remove all crushed coral from DT. Anyone want it for a bargain?
- Clean out tank, add in shallow sand bed and get the aquascape how I want it. I don't like the crused coral because of looks and depth. I have no idea how long this sand bed as been like this and I have read varying thoughts on the longevity of deep sand beds. I presume because of the sand that this will need to cycle. Although using all of my old rock should speed up this process, right?
- While the tank reset is happening, purchase and QT fish as I please. It will be nice to be able to pick out the fish and the order that they are placed in the tank. Currently they are extremely territorial. Yellow tang isn't too fond of purple, etc.
-
In summary:

It seems like I want to use this opportunity to start from a clean slate to ensure that I wipe out this problem for good and don't risk it later as the $$$ in coral increases in the future. It also allows me to change some things that have always bothered me (sand, rock work). I mean, if I don't change it now, when would I? I am not that attached to the fish, but the corals are priority 1 in terms of survival.

This kind of turned into a novel, but I would love some input as I am sure many of you have been in a situation similar to this. To wrap it up:
- Who wants to buy some sick fish at a massive discount?
- Anyone have a frag tank for cheap so I don't have to drill and setup a tank?
- Who in so cal, (OC hopefully) sells bulkheads and the like so I don't have to order from BRS?
- Who wants a ton of crushed coral for cheap?
- Does this plan remotely make sense for what I want to accomplish?

Thanks! Hopefully I provided enough detail, but I would love all questions, comments and concerns. And definitely tips! I'll add some pics after lunch.

 

[thegrun]

Brian,
Sorry I didn't see you last weekend at RAP, I was down there all weekend. Are you sure your fish have ich? While possible, it is rare for ich to have not shown up before now on your fish and since you haven't added any fish and dipped your corals it seems likely that it would have had to have been present for several months. It is possible that the fish were able to fight off the disease that long without showing symptoms, but very rare. I would consider trying the tank transfer method with your fish if you want to keep them. You could use two 30 gallon ice chests or brute trash cans as temporary holding/transfer tanks. If you are not familiar with the tank transfer process the fish are placed in a small tank with new salt water, not water from your existing system. The tank, ice chest or trash can is simple with pvc for resting/hiding places, an hob and/or sponge filter and a heater. For burying species like leopard wrasses , a bowl of sand is added. The fish will remain for 3 days so ammonia build up is not a concern generally. To be on the safe side a small dose of ammonia detoxifier is added on the 2nd day. It's fine to use the detoxifier since no meds are in play. In contrast, Detoxifier and bound copper meds are a deadly combination .
After 72 hours the fish is/are moved to new similarly equipped tank with the same temp and sg. Care is taken to avoid adding water which might harbor a parasite from the first tank. This transfer of fish should take place in the morning before the lights come on or sun comes up. The first tank is then fully drained and dried over night along with all the equipment. The drying kills any parasites or cysts . It is set up again for the next transfer. A total of 4 transfers with 3 days in each tank will ensure any ich that came in with the fish is left behind. This method is known as the tank transfer method and takes advantage of the timing ich( crytocaryon irritants) life cycle.
After tank transfer , the fish can be moved to a larger cycled qt tank for further observation and treatment of other maladies that may emerge like flukes or bacterial infections, in this case you could use your 80 gallon tank to hold the fish for the 10 weeks your main tank sits fallow.
Tank transfer only treats ich. It may have some effect on velvet but that parasites life cycle is different. It will not help brooklynella, flukes or other infestations that confine themselves to the skin or internal areas of the fish. So if these are observed a treatment with an appropriate med is required.

I would think one of the fish stores in your area have bulkheads but if not you could drive up to Garden Grove and will call the bulkheads at Marine Depot, my favorite place for parts since I live in Garden Grove and you don't have to pay for shipping if you will call. If you do find someone who wants the crushed coral be sure to let them know your tank had ich so they can treat it with a prolonged fresh water dip and not expose their fish to disease.
I'm glad to hear you are still enjoying the tank, sorry for the current problems.
Best of luck and keep us posted with how things turn out, it helps others who may encounter the same problem.
-Mike

 

[pciscott]

Any changes can cause stress and sometimes fish just die, I would ride it out and see how it looks in a month unless you are set on new aquascape. Change is not good and I have lost corals just by moving them to a different spot. As far as your parameters your sand bed could be your Nitrate factory and while bio pellets and skimming can reduce a old crushed coral sand bed gets very full of Detritus. If you do remove with tank running just take it out in very small sections with water change. Biopellets can lower and strip water if you run too much so I would double check your Nitrate readings with a new test kit as I have had kits go bad and read high.

In my opinion your tank is to low in Phosphate for an LPS tank. I like to be between .05 and .09 and when I am below I loose color. ULNS systems are used to strip the water so you can add the nutrients you want to and if you are not feeding heavy your corals will starve. I do not worry about Nitrates until they hit 30 and my big tank was at 25 last night and everything looks fine.

I just did a major move with two tanks and while my LPS is doing very well I lost most of my SPS as they tend to die if you look at them cross eyed. I will start over from frags when I stabilize.

Moving fish and coral will cause stress and upset any balance you have so be ready for losses any time you make a change. This can be something simple like adding flow or a new fish, to something complex like changing salt mix or adding Pellets.

As far as deworming your fish I have done full tank Prazi treatments with minimal stress and while your skimmer will go crazy for a week fish tend to respond well. I have tried to have an Ick free tank with quarantine and have lost more fish to copper and the stress of quarantine than I would like to admit. If you do quarantine fish the fewer the better because stress with not enough hiding places equals death to fish.

Your detailed account does help and I would not attribute any fish loss to water quality with your parameters just the stress of moving stuff around. Some Corals and fish thrive while others die that is just part of this hobby. My wife has a favorite fish and it is in my sump at this time as it started liking the taste of Scolimia Coral. I am looking for a home for a 3 year old Captive Moorish Idol that eats only the most expensive corals so anyone with a very large Fish Only I have a beauty.

Glad to hear you had a fun time at Rap and this hobby can be a bit addicting It has been 4 days since my last fish tank purchase and I am ready for more! If you ever need any help PM me for my number.

Good luck!

 

[bemerritt]

Thank you very much for the responses. Sometimes I get stuck in such a one track mind, it is hard to think of other options. I forgot to mention that another option that both of you alluded to is that I am over reacting and looking for a problem that I seem to have a solution for.

To answer and respond to some of the points brought up:

- I am not sure the fish has ich, as I got home late last night and left early this morning. But when I fed the fish last night, it did not come out of hiding immediately and when he did he was scratching along the wall of the tank. He had at least 10 white spots scattered across his body. I'll observe further tonight.

-The deep crushed coral substrate is my worry for nitrates, hence the biopellets. I am not shooting for an ULNS but I do wish to have some SPS. (Got a birds nest at RAP to see how it would do in my system, so far so good. more time will tell.) I usually would change out the GFO monthly, but I am not going to change it unless i see a spike. Previous to the reading of .03, my lowest was .07 ppm for phosphates. I also only run half the recommended amount.

- The tank transfer method seems rather simple enough to do just as a precautionary on the way to QT if i decide to go that way. In that case, is my stock list (3 tangs, 2 clowns, and a hawkfish) going to be too stressed in an 80 gallon tank? Seems like it could definitely do more harm than good.

- If I do transfer the coral and rocks to a new tank, would it be best to acclimate them to freshly made salt water or use the current tank water?

- I really like the idea of getting rid of the crushed coral, and it seems the only effective way to do it safely is to remove all coral/livestock from the tank. How long do you think it would tank to cycle the sand when using my current live rock?

 

[o2manyfish]

My guess is that either the disturbing of the sand bed released something nasty that belonged in the sand bed, or you perhaps had something on your hands when you were doing your tank maintenance. Lotion, cologne, oil, gas, even scented soap that you carefully washed your hands with.

If you reach into the sand bed is the sand still sand? Some sand beds kind of 'petrify' over time and become solid clumps. When they are solid water no longer can pass through the sand and that is when a sand bed (or deep sandbed) can become a liability rather than a benefit.

If you can push a finger of stick through the sand bed without hitting a solid rock, your sand bed is still beneficial.

The Biopellets stripping the nutrients too fast would have affected your corals but would not have caused an issue with your fish.

If the tank has been stable with the attention you have been giving it, and the corals you have experimented with have been doing well. Then I would do a water change, add some fresh carbon and give it a week to see what happens.

If things continue to deteriorate then undertake a major renovation. If things are stable, then re-evaluate your renovation plans as to what is going to make this a more beautiful and enjoyable tank for you without having to do such major stressful changes to all the contents of the tank.

Dave B

 

[pciscott]

If you restart with your established rock and dry sand you would probably not even have a cycle.

Plan ahead and be ready I suggest a very clean dry Sand Tonga Reef Flakes is my favorite and is almost dust free new out of the bag.

Empty your tank water into your coral holding tank first, and then save as much as you can in a large bin or Brute trash can.

Next move your rock, I would have 3 buckets with fresh salt or clean tank water to swish the rocks in to clean them off. Each bucket will get them a little more clean ending up with them in your brute container or bin.

Next move your fish over to the 80 and that size is fine for the fish you have. I would suggest a SeaChem Ammonia badge in the tank and some chlorine stabilizer at hand. I am not a expert on Tank transfer but you need to make sure your fish do not get ammonia spike. Plenty of new water until you get them to stabilize. A foam air driven cycled sponge filter will help keep ammonia at bay so get a sponge filter in your tank now to grow the bacteria if you decide against tank transfer. Anyways just keep the fish alive and read up on tank transfer as the added stress can end with bad results in my experience.

Next clean out your tank, sump, and everything as best you can.

Now you are ready to put in clean dry sand, add the sand first then start adding in water from your rock bin and fresh. Add the rock in and if you do this all the same day you should not have a cycle. Within a week you can start adding your more hardy corals back in. I have added corals same day as long as you are using cycled rock that has little to no die off.

In 10 weeks add the fish ick free, to me this is not attainable unless you have extra quarantine tanks and the patience of a monk because any coral or even putting a wet hand from one tank to another can add ick.

I have found if you have hiding spaces and not so aggressive fish you will be less likely to have stress. My new reef has very few tangs because the one thing I did not realize with my minimal aquascape is that the lack of hiding places adds to the fishes stress.

Anyway if you do it all in one day you will have a beautiful white sandy new tank to stare at until it looks to small and then you will start planning round 2