Need advice on setting up a multi tank 1000g system

[EnderG60]

Ok a client of mine is wanting to do a 1000ish gallon system consisting of two 240g reef tanks and a 210 fish only tank all on one system with a 300g sump.

I have run into one main problem, and that is how to plumb the two 240g reef tanks back to the sump. This is the rough layout. The dark blue is the drain/return path for one 240, the light blue for the other 240 and the green for the fish only system. (pardon the simple drawings, Ill get better ones when I have real measurements)

Now the first problem is the drain pipes will have to be run along the floor, and I am thinking of either simply running a 4" pipe from the tank back to the sump(collecting the 2 or 3 drains from the tank to a single 4") Or putting a smaller sump under each tank and connecting it to the main sump via a 4" pipe. As pictured below.

Now my second problem is that I for the light blue system, I would have to run the pipe under the concrete floor for a few feet to get around the doorway(between a bathroom and the 210). I am planning on incorporating unions along the drain system to be able to replace the pipes every few years as crud builds up, but if it goes under the floor that section will be covered in concrete and thus not serviceable. Will the 4" pipe be sufficient to handle around 2000gph of flow after years of buildup?

I want to set this system up to be extremely easy to maintain due to its size, and the lengths these drains need to go is the only thing that is worrying me, so I want to make sure its done right.

Any input?

 

[EnderG60]

anyone? Im thinking option A will be the easyest to do.

 

[sick1166]

option a 3inch is more than enough. i run 2 " 60 ft to a sump after 14 years i just relocated and had now crude in the pipes snails crabs shrimps eels all flow to the sump

 

[TinyTanker]

dude the water movement and transititon of water should be two seperate entities. This setup is possible but if the pumps were to be shut off you have to tank into account the drain off and water level of the sump. I would also recoomend that the pvc pipe fairy get your teeth before you sink into this three tank oops overflow problem equal heights brain

 

[EnderG60]

Each tank will have its own closed loop system for flow, this is just for the return system, which will more then likely be a 1100 or 1740 pressure rated pump(have to do the linear head loss calculations to decide what will be needed) but there probably wont be more then a 1000gph of turnover from the return.

as far as drain off, while I do plan to use check valves and anti syphon holes I think the 300g sump will more then handle the runoff of these tanks should everything else fail.

Im leaning toward option A due to its simpler design and the fact that hydrostatic pressure will work for me to keep things going.

 

[BeanAnimal]

All things considered 1000GPH per tank is very low flow for the size pipe and distance you are talking about.

Will you be able to grade the pipes at all?

Option "B" will be much quieter. You can use siphon type overflows (NOT HOB, but a siphon backup up by open channel flow) to keep it dead silent and hydrostatic pressure to move it to the sump. Please ask if that does not make sense.

Option "A" will be harder to silence without forcing it to run full pipe and thus on the edge of equilibrium.

I would certainly plan the sump based on the worst case drainback from all of the equipment and NOT even bother with check valves or backflow prevention.

 

[just dave]

I would talk the client into putting the two reefs on a common system and swapping the locations of the 210 with the reef in the waiting area. Let the 210 stand alone.

 

[EnderG60]

Yes I can grade the pipes a bit. I was under the impression that 1/4" for every 10ft would suffice.

It doesn't have to be dead silent since there will be a large closed loop pump for each system, just reasonable. We have a 800g at work that is plumbed like option A and its working just fine at around 2500gph with a 4" drain that goes under the floor to the back room. So I'm thinking 3" should work just fine for that I need.

Just dave, I have tired, he wants them all on one system...I am going to continue to pester him about it though

They are wiring the place right now(each tank has two dedicated 20a circuits, and the sump room has 3!)

The floors are getting cut up in the next week or so, to do the other bathroom so I need to get the plumbing layout done by then.

 

[spazz]

what will the hight of the tank be? how tall is the sump? can you run the pipes through the side wall of the sump to give it better linear flow and not back up in the pipe? if you were able to run the plumbing on a slight grade and then it goes straight into the sump. you wouldnt have any backup and things would flow very well. the flow rate for the tank that has the plumbing under the concrete will need to be a variable frow rate. i would install a valve on the pump to restrict the flow if needed based on the overflow and how much that will handel inthe end. the tall the tanks are off the floor the better chance you have of keeping the flow rates high.

 

[BeanAnimal]

spazz, with a 3" pipe and a "trap" the horizontal pipes will run full and silent. The water will be pushed down the line by hydrostatic head pressure of the display sump. 1000GPH is not a lot of flow and should be easy to accomodate with the setup as desribed

10,000 GPH and we may have problems!

 

[EnderG60]

yeah all these pipes will be for is getting the water to the sump to be skimmed, and go through the fuge.

The stand will be about 32 or 36" high (i forget which), and the sump will be on the floor and is a 300g wide(so 24" tall) So the pipe will have to run along the floor(cant put them behind the wall) and come back up to get to the sump, creating a VERY long U trap(which makes me wonder if I even need to have any slope to the pipe)

Im thinking if I join the two drains together with a large X coupling and use the top one to vent the air it should be pretty quiet.

The only reason Im even considering option B is to catch anything that might clog the lines, but with a 3 or 4" pipe Im not sure I have anything to worry about. I was also thinking of rigging up a float switch in the overflow boxes(or in said X coupling) to shut the pump off should the water get backed up.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Option A will tend to FLUSH unless you put a lot of thought into it.

Option B will simply seek its own level and be dead silent. As I mentioned, if you use a full siphon standpipe assisted by an open channel standpipe you will have no noise. These will feed the collection box that is under the tank.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Furthermore:

Due to the very low water velocity in the drain pipes, option B will allow you to use the collection box as a detritus settling area. This is not ideal, but BOTH options will allow the detritus to settle in the long drain pipe. Option B will allow you to build a baffle and a low velocity area for settling, keeping the bulk of the material out of the drain pipes.

 

[EnderG60]

Good point. And do you have any diagrams for that full siphon standpipe you speak of? I need visuals

And as I said, Im hoping to make the pipes large enough that buildup wont be a problem. And Im going to make them removable so they can be cleaned once or twice a year.(Ive even figured out how to make the under floor section removable!)

 

[BeanAnimal]

I would not worry about making them removable... You can just put cleanout Tees in both ends and run a pig through them if needed.

(3) Standpipes in the overflow box. (2) with down turned elbows and strainers, (1) with an upturned elbow and strainer. Lets call them S1, S2 and S3!

Each has a TEE and cap (stockman or durso styel). Instead of a hole drilled in the cap, you will want to tap it and put in a John Guest valve.
Below the TEE will be a ball valve.

Setup as follows:
S1: Fully closed air valve, partially closed ball valve
S2: Fully open air valve, fully open ball valve
S3: Fully closed air valve, full open ball valve

Connect airline to the S2 John Guest valve and curl it over and secure it just below the rim of the tank ( just above the normal operating level).

Adjust S1 until the water level in the overflow box is stable and deep enough to prevent noise (the elbows will be submerged).

They system is 100% self tuning.

How it works:
S1 is a full siphon, no air can get in. You adjust the ball valve so that it CAN NOT handle all of the flow in the box. The remainder of the flow cascades down S1 but is not strong enough to pull air with it. Because S1 has an open air valve, no siphon forms.

Failsafe:
S3 is upturned and therefore will act as an emergency drain if S1 or S2 become clogged. It has a closed air valve, so it will function as a full siphon and flush if need be. The airline on S2 will also become submerged if the water rises too high. The water will block the airline and cuase S2 to also become a full siphon and help flush the overflow box if needed.

The system is very self tuning (set and forget) and will adapt itself to a wide range of flows. In other words it is not a touchy "sweet spot" that you have to maintain like a durso or stockman.

It is dead silent... DEAD SILENT! And little or NO AIR reaches the sump.

 

[EnderG60]

ok im going to have to draw that out to fully get it, but if the air valves are closed on S1 and S3 do you still need them to be on there?

you said in how it works S1 has an open air valve but in setup you said its closed. Im a bit confused now.

 

[8BALL_99]

Not sure if it matters but if you go with option B. The sump under the tank will be alot shorter then the 300g 24" tall sump.. At best with a standard 32" tall stand a 16-18" high sump would be a tough fit.. So even though you would have alot of room in your big sump your smaller sumps might overflow if you didnt' keep your running water level low.. With option A this isn't a issue.. I think A would be easier and less plumbing to deal with.. I had 3 tanks connected together at one time.. 2 of them had their own sumps and were tied together like B.. The one under the tank that water was getting pumped to stayed a little higher then the main sump.. As in your sump under you tank will probably keep a little higer running water level then the 300g sump with B..

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ender, the air valves are on all 3 standpipes for versatility.

I just mistyped:

S1 is a full siphon, no air can get in. You adjust the ball valve so that it CAN NOT handle all of the flow in the box. The remainder of the flow cascades down S2 but is not strong enough to pull air with it. Because S2 has an open air valve, no siphon forms.

 

[EnderG60]

Are all three at the same height and S3 just has the elbow turned up rather then down? So versatility aside S1 and S3 really dont need the air valves(just because they are expensive and ill need 3 instead of 9)

and would plumbing the rest with option A cause any problems? I cant really see how this would work with all 3 drains connected below the tank.