Needing advice on amyloodinium and euthanasia.

Jlaw

New member
Hi there ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post here on RC. I want to firstly thank everyone for their knowledge and opinion, and apologize for my ignorance.

I am new to the hobby and have only been a member of the saltwater club for 2 months now. I like to think that I have decent knowledge of water chemistry, culturing plants, raising livestock, Parasites, Diseases, things of that nature. I work with plants, and have always had animals, so I can relate that somewhat to fish and corals. I also have a good friend who has had an awesome 155g for 6+ years, so at least I'm not coming into the hobby blind eyed. :thumbsup:


Anyway here goes,

I have had my tank up and running now for a short time (a speck in the sands of time), 2 months. Cycle went well everything has gone smooth and perfect. Until a days ago, I woke up one morning and my Lavender tang looked ill. He had signs of some sort of bacterial infection or parasitic infection. Eyes were very cloudy, lethargic, sitting at the bottom of the tank breathing heavily, wouldn't eat, SUDDEN out brake of what I presumed was Ich. I also observed discoloration to the body, and frayed fins. The discoloration was splotchy and of lighter color than the fish, looked as if it was coming from the interior rather than appearing on the scales.. ( makes me think of Marrium.. I pray to god I don't have that...)

Within hours, my Yellow eyed Kole started behaving the same way and all of the same symptoms became visible. With the exception of cloudy eyes.

The tangs do not show signs of aggression toward one another. I stressed the tank the night before, removed a problem fish, had to remove 95% of rock to catch the bastard.

Water parameters are on point bar 5ppm nitrate.. ( I attribute this to using to much crappy fish food, working on beating that habit.. ).

Within 18 hours the Lavander was dead.. I pulled him out and fresh water dipped him in RO/DI right after he took his last breath. I watched the parasites fall off of his body and gills. White tiny things. Another 6 hours koly died.

36 hours after the first signs of impending doom.. My school of four fire fish died.. My guess respiratory problems they didn't have signs of external parasites, but did have what appeared to be mucus coming out of the gills while getting blown around my tank by the power head. They couldn't swim properly... Dipped them as well and observed the same critters coming out of there gills.. Could have been mucus.

Next day the fish aids heads for my mated pair of Perculas.. With these guy I observe LOTS of velvet.. Looks like someone talcked them.. Not bigger spots like Ich.. They swim erratically brushing themselves against the glass and rocks.... Twitching, Staying near my fire shrimp and cleaner shrimp, begging for help. At this point in getting depressed. :worried2:

Night came, and the female really looked rough, so I ended her suffering. Scoped her out placed her in a bowl of water at 3 degrees Centigrade. She was gone in 2 seconds. ( I find temp shock to be to must humane for fish, No handling, almost instant death. NEVER PUT A FISH IN A FREEZER it is not humane!! ).

I put in place a 20g QT today. I know I know.. A little prevention goes a long way and I have certainly learned my lesson. EVERY fish will now get a 4 week QT. All my livestock is dead, Bar a goby who has signs of velvet on his Pectorals.. But looks happy, healthy, and is eating. And the male Clown.

QT for the Goby tomorrow for sure, He will be treated for Velvet using a copper treatment.. and the display tank will sit bare for the next 4-6 weeks. I'm installing a UV on the DT in the next couple days. I have lots of coral so I cant treat the display.

The Clown looks like ****.. He is eating, but is covered head to toe in a fine velvety white.. From what I read, at this point hes probably a gonner. Since velvet starts in the gills and moves out he is thoroughly invested.. He has lost his mate, and I fell like an *******. What would you do? should I end his suffering? Should I QT him and see what happens, hoping he doesn't further hurt my more expensive favorite fish Goby?

I'm torn here..

Thanks again everyone.
 
Hi there ladies and gentlemen, this is my first post here on RC. I want to firstly thank everyone for their knowledge and opinion, and apologize for my ignorance.

I am new to the hobby and have only been a member of the saltwater club for 2 months now.

First advice, slow down. You have WAY too many fish in a 2 month old tank, and WAY too many tangs in a new tank that is relatively small.

I like to think that I have decent knowledge of water chemistry, culturing plants, raising livestock, Parasites, Diseases, things of that nature. I work with plants, and have always had animals, so I can relate that somewhat to fish and corals. I also have a good friend who has had an awesome 155g for 6+ years, so at least I'm not coming into the hobby blind eyed. :thumbsup:


Anyway here goes,

I have had my tank up and running now for a short time (a speck in the sands of time), 2 months. Cycle went well everything has gone smooth and perfect. Until a days ago, I woke up one morning and my Lavender tang looked ill. He had signs of some sort of bacterial infection or parasitic infection. Eyes were very cloudy, lethargic, sitting at the bottom of the tank breathing heavily, wouldn't eat, SUDDEN out brake of what I presumed was Ich. I also observed discoloration to the body, and frayed fins. The discoloration was splotchy and of lighter color than the fish, looked as if it was coming from the interior rather than appearing on the scales.. ( makes me think of Marrium.. I pray to god I don't have that...)

Within hours, my Yellow eyed Kole started behaving the same way and all of the same symptoms became visible. With the exception of cloudy eyes.

The tangs do not show signs of aggression toward one another. I stressed the tank the night before, removed a problem fish, had to remove 95% of rock to catch the bastard.

Water parameters are on point bar 5ppm nitrate.. ( I attribute this to using to much crappy fish food, working on beating that habit.. ).

It is always easiest for us to know exactly what your water parameters are, but in this case it is not relevant.

Within 18 hours the Lavander was dead.. I pulled him out and fresh water dipped him in RO/DI right after he took his last breath. I watched the parasites fall off of his body and gills. White tiny things. Another 6 hours koly died.

36 hours after the first signs of impending doom.. My school of four fire fish died..

Just for your information, firefish will not do well long term in groups

My guess respiratory problems they didn't have signs of external parasites, but did have what appeared to be mucus coming out of the gills while getting blown around my tank by the power head. They couldn't swim properly... Dipped them as well and observed the same critters coming out of there gills.. Could have been mucus.

Next day the fish aids heads for my mated pair of Perculas.. With these guy I observe LOTS of velvet.. Looks like someone talcked them.. Not bigger spots like Ich.. They swim erratically brushing themselves against the glass and rocks.... Twitching, Staying near my fire shrimp and cleaner shrimp, begging for help. At this point in getting depressed. :worried2:

Night came, and the female really looked rough, so I ended her suffering. Scoped her out placed her in a bowl of water at 3 degrees Centigrade. She was gone in 2 seconds. ( I find temp shock to be to must humane for fish, No handling, almost instant death. NEVER PUT A FISH IN A FREEZER it is not humane!! ).

I put in place a 20g QT today. I know I know.. A little prevention goes a long way and I have certainly learned my lesson. EVERY fish will now get a 4 week QT. All my livestock is dead, Bar a goby who has signs of velvet on his Pectorals.. But looks happy, healthy, and is eating. And the male Clown.

Velvet will wipe out tanks. Quickly. Almost certainly all fish in that tank have it.

QT for the Goby tomorrow for sure, He will be treated for Velvet using a copper treatment.. and the display tank will sit bare for the next 4-6 weeks. I'm installing a UV on the DT in the next couple days. I have lots of coral so I cant treat the display.

UV will not prevent or cure parasites

The Clown looks like ****.. He is eating, but is covered head to toe in a fine velvety white.. From what I read, at this point hes probably a gonner. Since velvet starts in the gills and moves out he is thoroughly invested.. He has lost his mate, and I fell like an *******. What would you do? should I end his suffering? Should I QT him and see what happens, hoping he doesn't further hurt my more expensive favorite fish Goby?

Assuming you have properly configured your QT tank (I am not sure how you could this quickly) and are treating with copper, it cannot hurt to try and treat him. Keep in mind that copper and anti ammonia chemicals do not mix.

I'm torn here..

Thanks again everyone.
 
1. Chloroquine is safe a very effective for Amyloodinium. It will treat the fish and not the water, unlike copper. I have rescued more than one fish with clinical signs of velvet using chloroquine. With other treatments, it is almost always too late. It won't save them all though.

2. Finquel aka MS-222 or tricaine is what I recommend and is specifically indicated for fish euthanasia. At the proper dose, it is quite effective and sedates the fish.
 
Thanks for the reply's. Clowny didn't make it I found him this mourning. Transplanted the goby to QT today, I havnt bought any copper treatment yet, So I will go with the Chloroquine instead. Local fishstores around here don't carry it so it will have to be an online order. Hopefully amazon prime will have it, if so it will be here overnight.

At the time I put the female down it was 3am. Wallmart near me do not sell clove oil, and I've heard alot of horror stories about clove/vodka method... Just read some of the comments on the link you supplied.

I'm getting a UV since it will kill some free swimming protozoa and such.. Cant hurt..

I will buy MS-222 ASAP. wasn't an option at the time.

Now for a four week wait. Thanks again.
 
chloroquine sources -

email - louis at aquainfo33@aol.com for smaller quantities

or it is sold by the kilogram at fishchemical.com

A UV does help. If sized properly, it can reduce the parasitic load and allow the fish to survive long enough to develop an immune response. It will not eradicate the parasite though.
 
It does sound exactly like velvet, and not ich. I had a it wipe out most of my tank in a week. It's a horrible disease. The only good thing is that the life cycle is so short, it will be out of your system very fast. Its not like ich that needs 6 weeks or more fallow
 
You only need a week or so fallow FYI, the parasite has to find a host within 24 hours or it dies, so round up to a week to be safe.

I mean 4-6 weeks won't hurt, but it's not necessary and can stress your fish out more than necessary
 
You only need a week or so fallow FYI, the parasite has to find a host within 24 hours or it dies, so round up to a week to be safe.

I mean 4-6 weeks won't hurt, but it's not necessary and can stress your fish out more than necessary

Its doubtful that many will agree with this opinion. Please read the stickies in the disease forum to understand the life cycle. If you have and disagree, then I respectfully disagree.
 
Its doubtful that many will agree with this opinion. Please read the stickies in the disease forum to understand the life cycle. If you have and disagree, then I respectfully disagree.

You're right, of course. the 24 hrs is is not correct and just refers to the normal life span of the free swimming stage. Other parasites are not yet free swimming and waiting to emerge (cysts). There is some disagreement as to the life cycle timing of this parasite. Most info I've seen says the normal life cycle is 3 weeks. like all parasites, not all individuals have read the studies and take longer. I sure would allow at least 2 normal cycles (6 weeks) to pass before feeling safe. Also, free-swimming oodinium can last 2-3 days without a host; not just 24 hrs.
 
You're right, of course. the 24 hrs is is not correct and just refers to the normal life span of the free swimming stage. Other parasites are not yet free swimming and waiting to emerge (cysts). There is some disagreement as to the life cycle timing of this parasite. Most info I've seen says the normal life cycle is 3 weeks. like all parasites, not all individuals have read the studies and take longer. I sure would allow at least 2 normal cycles (6 weeks) to pass before feeling safe. Also, free-swimming oodinium can last 2-3 days without a host; not just 24 hrs.

Thanks for the link on the chloroquine sources. I'll go bulk always, seems to be cheaper that way.

Yep 4-6 weeks to be safe for me.. For now I have a reef only tank lol. Thanks again everyone for the replies. I am experiencing technical difficulties whit my Brain corals.. Started a thread, if anyone would like to take a look I would appreciate it. :thumbsup:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2168342
 
Most info I have seen was 24 hours to 3 days for the life cycle. There is a lot of conflicting information, because velvet is often Mis diagnosed as ich, and that has a much longer life cycle.

Also, I can speak from personal experience with velvet that wiped out half my fish in a short span, and I took the remaining fish out, had them out for 5 days, put everyone back in, along with 3 or 4 other new fish who had been treated in a qt, and another 4 or 5 fish the following week. I wasn't worried about stocking too fast because I had previously had much more fish in the same system before they got velvet, so the bacteria levels were more than able to sustain the new additions. So that's 8 NEW fish within 2 weeks of 5 days being fallow, along with the 10 back from the QT, and ZERO reoccurrence of velvet, or any other disease. Sooo either I'm the luckiest person in the world (doubt it) or the shorter lifespan values of velvet are the correct ones, and some people just overkill the time frame majorly.
 
Most info I have seen was 24 hours to 3 days for the life cycle. There is a lot of conflicting information, because velvet is often Mis diagnosed as ich, and that has a much longer life cycle.
.

24 hrs to 3 days for the total life cycle; or just the free-swimming phase? I can remember different numbers for length of the total life cycle for oodinium; but nothing close to 24 hrs, or even 3 days. happen to have a source?

Personally, I doubt any hobbyist can go wrong by reading and following Snorvich's posts & his blog. His material is always a combination of excellent research and common sense. He suggests a 6 week fallow period, twice the normal 3 week life cycle of oodinium. There are always individual parasites and other factors that can extend their "normal' life cycle and I think allowing for two life-cycles is wise.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/blog.php?b=290
 
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