New Design for a Non-Photosynthetic System

[herring_fish]

I have finally re-started my reef tank after relocating. I am developing a new design for a non-photosynthetic system and I need your help. My old tank is documented on my web site, http://asaherring.com although the articles are 9 or 10 years old. I work as a designer and I experiment a lot so when I saw that dendros were being grown successfully, I decided to jump into the fray despite my lack of knowledge. I hope that I will get feed back on the design and setup phase of this endeavor. Below I have listed what I have so far.

130 gallon tank

Lots of Pumps and Lights.

Dump Bucket/Algae Scrubber
I am committed to my old favorite because I have used it for many years and love it (no skimming). I was going to put plants in the top of the sump instead but Chuck Stottlemire suggested that using vodka may suppress growth in complex plants too much so I will try this as an experiment. Cool lights can be closer to the water in this scrubber and (thriving or not) the simple algae may work if only to provide some insurance.

Horse Trough that has room for about 20” below the water line
I think that I will try to employ an upside down sand bed.
I hope that Charles Matthews and anyone else will give me some feed back on depths of sand, gravel, dead reef rock etc.

6 Inch by 6 Foot Lexan Tube
I was going to try a 2 tube sulfur denitrification system like you can see in the picture but Chuck also suggests that it may irritate dendros. Therefore I’m wondering if I could use just one tube for calcium carbonate gravel only. With water flowing upward slowly, the water may turn anaerobic to denitrify. On the other hand, could I dose vodka to create a bacteria incubator? Perhaps I could denitrify low in the tube and introduce air and vodka higher in the tube. All this may be stupid and not worth trying. I don’t know.


I think that I will buy a small wine cooler (not cold enough) freezer/refrigerator that I found. I hope to place it in the top of the cabinet at the back and take care to vent the heat outside the cabinet. I will place the containers of food, as purchased or diluted as little as possible, into the cooler. I’ll run the tube lines from inside of the containers to a multi-station dosing pump, either through the wall of the cooler or through the seal at the door. From the pump, the drops of food will go directly into my dump bucket to get fairly diluted. Then the rich water will cascade into the tank with an energetic splash at one end of the tank, in front of the main pump outlets. That way, I hope to be able to “set and forget” the feeding process as much as possible. Perhaps, I’m little naïve. Of courser I have to consider laminar flow and I have some plans that I am developing for that.

I hope that you will help me by posting answers, corrections, redirection and more ideas.

 

[herring_fish]

Water Flow Switching Value

Water Flow Switching Value

I just came back from talking to a machinist about making a flow switching value. It would be a 2” dia. version of the one that was designed by Robert Michelson. http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/CirculationSystem.html He told me that it is still working well after several years.
It allows for a slow cyclical build and falloff of water flow and then reverses the same way. I think that I will switch both the inlet and the outflow of the pumps that I will gang together.

I have also designed a high output non-traumatic pump and have prototyped part of it but haven’t had the time to build the full prototype.

 

[dendro982]

Would it be not too bold of me to ask you to visualize your verbal description? Adding scrubber and denitrator boxes, for example, and add arrows to indicate flow in and out.

Can't give any pointers, alas: I belong to highly interested, but reasonably low tech audience . Life choice.

Good luck to your project!

 

[herring_fish]

OK I will try to draw some graphics for you.

OK I will try to draw some graphics for you.

First up?
This is a drawing of my dump bucket.

It is 6 ½” wide, 3” tall and 48” long. The last 3” segment is occupied by a steel weight that is incased in epoxy to prevent rust.

The dark blue area, in the top drawing, shows how the water starts to fill the bucket, mostly on the right of the fulcrum. The light blue shows how the water extends to the left as it continues to fill until it changes the balance of the structure. The second drawing shows how the bucket tips to let the water flow out, before it rights it self to start the cycle again.

One of my previous taller bucket designs made quite a strong splash. This one was originally designed at 3” of height to accommodate a low profile cabinet top but I felt that the splash was a little weak, although it had a long discharge time which I liked. This time, I think that I will install it at the top of the tank cabinet to make a better splash.

Water from the bucket will probably be directed into a piece of 6” Lexan tubing, about 2 feet long, that extends to just below the tank’s water line. This will get rid of the splashing which can cause salt creep. The tube should also make it quieter as well, although I found that the long natural periodic sound of the splash to be relaxing.

 

[herring_fish]

Water Flow Switching Value

Water Flow Switching Value

See the link above to the Water Flow Switching Value that I want to copy and add some features to.

The reason for this different sized unit is so that I can get more volume through the device, perhaps ganging more that one pump together. I hope to have one on all the time but cycle on a second, and then a third to get a peek flow rate and then cycle back from three to two and finally back to one, over several hours, in more of a tidal fashion.

I also would like to have four ports instead of two so that I can switch the output as well as the input of the pumps. I will make the orthogonal holes slightly elongated to get a bigger opening.

I understand that there will be a loss of efficiency as a result of using this switching design, particularly if I employ a push-pull method, as well as from ganging pumps together.

 

[herring_fish]

Sand, Rubble and Rock

Sand, Rubble and Rock

Tank Spec. (s)
130 Gallons 6 feet long by 24 inches high and 18 inches in depth.

Horse trough is 56” long by 26” width by 24” high, 20” under water line.
I might use a 1” plenum, 4” of coral gravel and 6” of coral sand which I already have. On top of that 6” of special rubble from Carib-Sea (not yet available for sale) and 3” of dead coral rock. Perhaps, I will add Mangrove Plants.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you!
One more question: What skimmer worked well for you?

And some thoughts, if I may (I'm significantly less time in a hobby, than you ):
1. Denitrator should be a very useful thing. But how do you compare it with alternative ways of lowering nitrates: a) increasing amount of a large live rock and b) mechanical filtration and/or efficient skimming for removing excess of organics before it decomposes? Why denitrator - as an addition to the both methods above or as replacement for them?
Just curious, as always .

I'm feeding my tank with a lot of sun corals quite heavily, and after a) increasing amount of large LR, b) going bare bottom, c) siphoning weekly detritus piles and d) weekly water changes nitrates are at 20 ppm, phosphates 0 ppm (with phosphate remover in the sump). Before adding more rock and making the open, cleanable aquascaping, nitrates were at 80 ppm.

2. The usage of vodka in a long tube with calcium carbonate gravel (marble chips or CaribSea Aragonite?): from what I had read, the bacterial bodies are better to be removed within hours, in this case an author used a filter floss and discarded it. I, with my inefficient skimmers' work, had a slime coat on all surfaces, clogging LR's pores and decomposing in the tank. Same was with Red Sea Proto Bac, now have to cook LR to eliminate consequences.

There could be some possibility that the dead bacteria will accumulate in this tube and become the source of pollution, instead of being the mean of nutrients export (when bacterial bodies are removed promptly).

3. Rubble pile: what function will it perform?
It could became a detritus trap, at least it will be 100% so in my tanks.

4. Sulfur in denitrator, if it is questionable, could be replaced by any inert media, like Seachem DeNitrate or any other. It will only provide the surface for bacteria to colonize, and long tube will create anaerobic conditions. DSB in a bucket could probably do the same, although it is more bulky and less elegant solution.

Pardon my invasion in the thread, you likely would prefer to hear from dendro keepers, working at different level.

 

[herring_fish]

I really am no expert so I wouldn’t even listen to myself. I am simply an experimenter. Over the years, I have found what works for me and my personality. My way might not work for anyone else. I just hope that my experimentation will entertain me and help others. I would also encourage anyone to post here, regardless of their experience level, equipment preferences or system philosophy.

I do prefer to use natural methods where possible. You might not think so after seeing my fascination with designing hardware. Your questions and my answers, that may or may not hit the mark, will hopefully get others to chime in.

After my first year of reef keeping, I stopped using a skimmer at all. Not that I think that scrubbers are better. I continue to feed more and more over time and it didn’t make sense to me to put all that food in the tank and then skim it right back out again. I don’t use mechanical filtration either because I don’t want the food to decay in the filter, prier to cleaning. I like to use a lot of rock although I use more and more dead rock that is seeded quickly by the other rock in the tank and stuff from GARF and other sources.

I try to keep detritus suspended in the water column for as long as possible so my sand bed will be a version of Charles Matthew’s upside down sand bed. I’m hoping that the water flow in the plenum will help keep sediment off of the bottom.

I want to see what will happen in a 6” diameter column of rubble. That clear plastic tube should help me to see what is going on in there. I expect that, because of its special porosity, the rubble will support a higher population of critters of every type. I think that detritus will fall to the bottom where it can be removed. I will employ rubble in the tank and in the sump as well.

I hope to duplicate the results of the experiment with vodka that Chuck Stottlemire had. Direct export is not the reason for growing more bacteria. As I understand it, the vodka feeds the bacteria, which takes up unwanted nutrients and small critters eat the bacteria. Then the bigger critter feast on them and so on.

Sulfur denitrification sounds like a great idea but I don’t know enough about it yet to make a judgment. That is an area that I wanted to experiment with but I will delay it for a while.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you, and, if you don't mind, the last few questions.

I started skimmerless and with minimal filtration, and couldn't keep it this way - 80% water changes weekly were required. Also would to use as much of natural ways of keeping, as possible.

1. What worked for you for keeping water quality tolerable, with frequent feeding? Who uses the uneaten food and dissolved organics?
IMHE:
a) Bristle worms and sponges wasn't able to handle this for me,
b) the only way with dissolved organics was washing food (impossible for scleronephthya's and dendronephthya's food, don't have a strainer with this size of mesh, and rotifer screens should clog very quickly).
c) This left only skimmer and water changes to deal with it.
d) Keeping corals in a big tank leads to increasing feeding, to keep the food density acceptable. More food - more organics have to be removed.

2. Is algae scrubber large and noisy (splash)?
I have noise and space limitations, but open to any ideas.

3. Vodka usage, as far as I know, requires the usage of oversized and very efficient skimmer.
All skimmers, that I tried, are not fit for the purpose. This is why I asked about which skimmer was efficient for you.

4. Can you add a little more about methods of keeping detritus suspended?
As I understand, most others are using wavemakers.

 

[herring_fish]

Scrubber

Scrubber

I use compact florescent lights right over the bucket.

I have used a dump bucket for many years while over feeding. I also used a Jaubert sand set up. I had no room for a sump at all. Details of that can be seen on my site http://asaherring.com/Reef/Sandsetup.pdf or by looking elsewhere around the net.

Although it served me will, I will not use the Jaubert sand set up this time, only for cosmetic reasons. I want to try a different type of sand that simply covers the bottom and hopefully looks good. I will rely on the sump to replace the function of the “in tank” system. I will stir the sand often if the critters don’t do the job well enough. I will probable disturb the sand and re-suspend detritus periodically if only to stimulate a corals feeding response.

Between the dump bucket and the sand set up, I stopped testing because my store bought nutrient level test kits always showed completely negative color change. I didn’t do many water changes. Once, I stopped feeding and left my tank completely unattended for three months. When I cleaned the glass and found that the tank was quite healthy.

In my new set up, I will take feeding to a higher level and hope that the vodka will work. I my not be as successful as others but I will try it out.

The dumping action for that low profile bucket was very quiet but you don’t have to make the tray move and dump at all. Efficiency goes up by 50% with agitation but a stationary plate will work just find. You will have to try different configurations to see what sound level you feel comfortable with. You could make a plate that is wider and flatter and/or cause the water to slide down a plastic spill way that extends into the water.

The low profile bucket shown above, rested on a plastic platform which lied on the top of the tank. Water only fell about 2”. My next installation will have a longer drop.

I used a taller dump bucket in my first tank and then built the low profile version when I moved up to a bigger tank. I used the Jaubet sand set up in the new tank for about 5 years with no sand stirring other than what the critters did. When I tore down the tank to move, there was only about a 1/4” of detritus on the glass bottom inside the stagnant plenum.

In the upside down sand bed, there is a plenum that will have water flowing through it rather fast. Hopefully, this will blow sediment off of the bottom.

 

[dendro982]

Thank you, very informative. If you can tolerate me a little more, some questions again:

1. I already looked into algae scrubbers' designs and asked people, who have them, all models were moving, emptying each time, and none of them over the tank. Maybe you still have the old photos? Do you have any links to stationary or small algae scrubbers?

2. How the tank cleaning is done under scrubber, or it is removable?

3. From pdf file on your website, you have a good knowledge of Mark Weiss products. Are Combo Vital and Reef Bugs familiar to you? If yes, I'd like to ask a question about their proper usage, had problems.

Thanks again.

 

[herring_fish]

More about Algal Turf Scrubbers

More about Algal Turf Scrubbers

I PM(ed) you a table that helps you figure out how big to make the Dump Bucket (DB) and how much light to use. I didn’t want to re-publish without permission. The lighting used by many people in the past was VHO. I used a 300 watt halogen flood lamp ($10), about a foot away from the water in the DB, for a 55 gallon tank. It worked great, although I had to add a lot of water to make up for evaporation. Now days compacts are cool, bright and cheap.

I will try to find some sketches of other design schemes. You can look around the net for ideas. If you are serious about designing and building one, you will have to play around first. I pulled out my pots and pans and started dumping water into my kitchen sink and bath tub. I played with flat ones, tall ones, round ones, square ones …you get the idea.

The alga grows on a piece of non-metallic screen that is placed on the bottom of the bucket. You would export/harvest the algae by getting about half of it off of the screen and throwing it in the toilet or use it elsewhere. At first you my have to scrape it off but quickly you can just quickly grab a handful. Soon, you can discard the screen and grow algae on the plastic. When the BD is mature, harvesting takes about 30 seconds total.

 

[dendro982]

Oh, 300W just for scrubber is out of question for me. Sorry, will continue to look around for the easier and less costly solutions.

Thank you for all the information, you provided, really appreciate that.

 

[herring_fish]

Compacts

Compacts

300W is just two light bulbs

 

[herring_fish]

Fixed Scrubber plate

Fixed Scrubber plate

You could cut the bottom off of a plastic storage container to make a scrubber plate with sides to chanel the water. Use some silicon to glue a piece of plastic to form a damn. This will cause the water to spread out and go over the spillway evenly. The water would therefore, roll down the screen evenly. The end of the scrubber plate can be placed in the water for a more quiet operation or just out of it to make a constant trickling sound. Use anything made of plastic to hold it up and in place.

 

[dendro982]

Wow, thank you! It's good to have a dedicated forum, where one can get all answers.
As soon, as I downsize for 2 more tanks and find a reliable rack, I'll start to do that.
Thanks again.

 

[dendro982]

Me again: the last question, if you don't mind.
What are the options for location of the algae scrubber?
1. Separately, as a refugium, but above it.
2. Above the tank (seems to be difficult, because of lights and restricted access to the tank).
3. Above sump (but skimmer sticks far above the sump, only the short place is left).
Anything else?
Thanks.

 

[herring_fish]

Mard Weiss

Mard Weiss

I will try to draw something for you. As for the Marc Weiss products, what were your questions?

 

[dendro982]

I have Combo Vital (Spectra Vital + Black Powder), expected it to be a food, because it contains crude protein, fiber and yeasts, and others had excellent growth of the hitchhiking filter feeders after its use.

As appeared, it is a water buffering agent. The particles are very big and floating on the surface. After sprinkling them onto the water surface for the night:
1) When the surface skimming is off, they slowly sink and settle on corals, rock and bottom. Very unsightly and have to be removed manually.
2) When the surface skimming is on, the black floating particles are removed very fast from the tank. According instructions, they should be present in the tank all night long.

What to do?
If Combo Vital has any potential benefits, I'll like to use it. Thought about placing it in the fine filter bag and placing in the high flow, where it may slowly dissolve, without requiring daily tank cleaning.

Reef Bugs:
I have mixed impression again: the dose seems too big, and if the main mass is the inert carrier for a bacteria, it will settle on the tank surfaces again, requiring removing.
Should I consider it as a food or a bacterial supplement, like Seachem Stability? In the last case, it could be better again to place it in 250 micron bag and place in a high flow.

Any advices on the usage of these two products?
My perception could be wrong.

 

[herring_fish]

I had some room behind my tank so I straddled the back edge of it with a simple plastic platform to rest the bump bucket on. This left lots of room for lighting in the front. The water was easy to direct back into the tank.

It would be easy to cut up inexpensive storage containers to create platforms, walls and corners. I wouldn’t depend on structural strength from glue joints without testing but seams can be glued together with silicon.

A storage container could support a scrubber and a hole could be cut at the front corner of it so that the water enters the tank safely. Silicon could be used to form a lip around the hole so that the water doesn’t run back along the flat bottom of the platform.

One long side could be cut away from a container with the open side facing into the tank. The remaining sides can provide barriers to keep splashing and drips away from the walls and floor.