New Hobbyist! Help would be much appreciated

[SundaeBest]

Hello guys, first off I would like to start off with a thanks for those of you who take the time to help a newbie out, and an apology for the length of this post.

I've been interested in the hobby since my college days, but knowing the amount of money and time required of the hobby, coupled with the uncertain nature of residence in college; I always felt it was a better idea to wait till I was in a more stable situation after college.

With that said, I've done enough basic research to the point where I feel I can start up, but not enough for me to dive in balls-deep.

My basic question is: Should I go with a 30gallon nanocube with a wet to dry filter, or a 45-50+ gallon setup with sump. I'll list the questions/concerns I have about choosing:
- From what I've read, the bigger the tank the easier to maintain and the easier it is to see problems coming and the more time you have to manage them before they overwhelm your reef system
- I have no idea how a sump system is supposed to be set up, or what each individual component (i.e. socks, protein skimmer, live rock in the sump system, UV lighting in the sump system) is supposed to be set up, or how some of those work/affect your reef.
- Costs are probably the biggest concern here, while I have enough money to endeavor into the hobby, I am currently paying off student loans as well as car payments and just about everything else. Because of this, I lean towards the nano cube because from what I'm told lighting alone for a large tank could run as much as 300-600$ alone, the tank and stand would put me at around 400-500 and that's without any equipment; while I can get the nano cube for around 300$ total.
- I do realize that the nano will lighting is cheaper because they are not as strong

So basically, the gist of my question is should I go with the nano even though I'm looking at a riskier venture? And if I go down that route what should I expect in maintenance; ie. frequency of water changes, cleaning of the tank, costs, etc...

Random Questions:

I live in Downey, at the border of LA county and Orange county in Southern California. Can anybody recommend any local fish shops, I've visited a few using yelp, but none even compare to the one I used to visit in Downtown Sacramento when I went to school up in Nor Cal. That store was amazing, I forget the name, but they had a Koi pond with the biggest golden Koi fish I've ever seen.

Live Rock: In my area, most places sell their live rock for around 3$/lb or "fiji live rock" for 4$/lb, is it really fiji rock? Is it worth the upsell (pros/cons)? Is there any way to verify it truly is fiji rock or a better quality rock?

Clownfish: Yes I know it's derivative, but I've always loved clownfish since I was a kid and I'm 31 years old, my love of Clowns predates any Nemo movie!! lol. My question is, how many can I have in a 30gal nano? When I introduce them do I introduce them all at once to ensure they get along? Or one at a time; I've read they tend to be territorial. Ideally I would love to have a pair of Australian black percula and a pair of Stubby Ocellaris Clowns if possible.

Thank you all in advance for the help. I will follow up in this thread with additional questions. I intend to go slow, and with the instruction of my local fish guy/gal and with the advice I receive here.

 

[SundaeBest]

So, I just went back to a post I made on this board way back in 2009 (back when I initially wanted to get into the hobby but decided against it) and noticed one of my questions was already answered. It seems I'll be hard pressed to get even 2 clowns to get along in a tank of that size (30gal) so I guess I have to choose between black/white or orange/white.

 

[vballlife2]

Welcome Sundaebest,

I would suggest something 48inches long to start as length in a tank is more important than depth/height (as fish swim lengths). I have started and have had a 55 gallon tank up and running for over a year. I started FOWLR (fish only with live rock) and a pair of oc. clowns. I now have softies, lps and a few more fish.

I would suggest starting with a sump as it gives you additional water volume, allows space to put things like, heaters, skimmers, UV(if you choose), carbon, gfo.

Lighting can get expensive but also just depends on what you want to keep. against what a lot of people have said I went with 48" 4 bulb t5 lighting from odyssea and have had no issues and my coral has seen awesome growth. (only cost me $125)

I do a 5 gallon water change once a week and find myself scraping the tank glass every few days (magnet cleaner helps a ton)

I purchased my liverock online and let it cycle in my tank (60lbs was $125)

My best advice would be search your local craigslist for a tank/stand or a full set up (skimmer, return pump, powerheads, heater) as this will probably be most cost efficient.

Most people will suggest only one type of clown in a tank of the size you are looking to start as they can be very territorial towards other clowns. (one pair can claim territory of 30-60 gallons depending on the type)

And my last bit of advice be ready to want to upgrade your tank... all the time, but just look at your current set up and imagine all the possibilities until you give into the upgrade. I am currently in search of a 125 or larger to get 6' in length so I can start add a tang or two.

Welcome to the hobby, and enjoy.

 

[SundaeBest]

Welcome Sundaebest,

I would suggest something 48inches long to start as length in a tank is more important than depth/height (as fish swim lengths). I have started and have had a 55 gallon tank up and running for over a year. I started FOWLR (fish only with live rock) and a pair of oc. clowns. I now have softies, lps and a few more fish.

I would suggest starting with a sump as it gives you additional water volume, allows space to put things like, heaters, skimmers, UV(if you choose), carbon, gfo.

Lighting can get expensive but also just depends on what you want to keep. against what a lot of people have said I went with 48" 4 bulb t5 lighting from odyssea and have had no issues and my coral has seen awesome growth. (only cost me $125)

I do a 5 gallon water change once a week and find myself scraping the tank glass every few days (magnet cleaner helps a ton)

I purchased my liverock online and let it cycle in my tank (60lbs was $125)

My best advice would be search your local craigslist for a tank/stand or a full set up (skimmer, return pump, powerheads, heater) as this will probably be most cost efficient.

Most people will suggest only one type of clown in a tank of the size you are looking to start as they can be very territorial towards other clowns. (one pair can claim territory of 30-60 gallons depending on the type)

And my last bit of advice be ready to want to upgrade your tank... all the time, but just look at your current set up and imagine all the possibilities until you give into the upgrade. I am currently in search of a 125 or larger to get 6' in length so I can start add a tang or two.

Welcome to the hobby, and enjoy.

Thanks so much for the insights. I have been searching CL for tanks/stands, haven't found a decent enough deal to justify buying used equipment, but I'll keep searching.

It looks like that's one point for large tank over nano. Also, I wasn't aware of the length over height, but now that I think about it, it seems pretty common sense. lol.

 

[coralsnaked]

A 29 gal Oceanic new is going to cost around 300+ and come w/ compact fl. lighting. This will grow any soft coral and some or most LPS not sufficient lighting for SPS coral. You can keep up to 5 small fish or one pair of larger mated clownfish like a Nemo style Ocellaris Clownfish if you want to keep coral and not pest algae. Any more will overload your filtration system and nutients will rise as clowns are significant eaters.

You should utize about 30 - 35 lbs of rock for that size tank and keep the substrate of your choice to <1". About 10 - 15 lbs of reef sand. I would cure the rock if dry right in the tank first in the dark with no filtration in place for up to 6 weeks. Just place the rock like you want it and add your 1.025 saltwater made from RODI not TAP water and throw in a peice of table shrimp and let it go in the dark for about 4 weeks. Buy a testing kit and test for ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. Only thing you should read by now is Nitrates around <20ppm. You can have an LFS do this for you. If any traces of Ammonia or Nitrites is left then wait another two weeks and retest. If none present then test for Phosphates PO4 and if below 0.03ppm now is time to add DRY reef sand, not live reef sand. If PO4 is higher than that then you will need to export the PO4 and this can be accomplished in a variety of means but in this empty tank scenerio i would suggest utilizing PhosGuaurd in a Phosguard media bag. And be sure to rinse it well in RODI prior to placing bag in tank. Once you have done this until the PO4 reaches <0.03 then you can add sand, but mke sure sand is well rinsed in regular water in a bucket until the water runs clear. Simply add around your rock scape to cover the exposed bottom up to 1 and only one inch. Put your filtration in place. Mechaical and otherwise. Remove any PhosGuard and add in about 5 snails and or hermits, wait a week and retest for all parametetrs. If all good do a twenty % water change add your pair of mated clowns. I would do 10% water changes per week and feed a med size pair of clowns frozen foods x2 daily to equal ~ 1/2 cube per day. After a couple of weeks then start adding soft corals and LPS corals.

Don't forget to test water params weekly on a new tank and shoot for
1.025 ppm SG
400ppm Ca
8.5 dkH Alk
1400 ppm Mg
<10 ppm NO3
<0.03 ppm PO4

Enjoy. This is a great means to start a new nano tank. Any shortcuts and you will pay for them in the short future with lots of pests!

 

[SundaeBest]

A 29 gal Oceanic new is going to cost around 300+ and come w/ compact fl. lighting. This will grow any soft coral and some or most LPS not sufficient lighting for SPS coral. You can keep up to 5 small fish or one pair of larger mated clownfish like a Nemo style Ocellaris Clownfish if you want to keep coral and not pest algae. Any more will overload your filtration system and nutients will rise as clowns are significant eaters.

You should utize about 30 - 35 lbs of rock for that size tank and keep the substrate of your choice to <1". About 10 - 15 lbs of reef sand. I would cure the rock if dry right in the tank first in the dark with no filtration in place for up to 6 weeks. Just place the rock like you want it and add your 1.025 saltwater made from RODI not TAP water and throw in a peice of table shrimp and let it go in the dark for about 4 weeks. Buy a testing kit and test for ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. Only thing you should read by now is Nitrates around <20ppm. You can have an LFS do this for you. If any traces of Ammonia or Nitrites is left then wait another two weeks and retest. If none present then test for Phosphates PO4 and if below 0.03ppm now is time to add DRY reef sand, not live reef sand. If PO4 is higher than that then you will need to export the PO4 and this can be accomplished in a variety of means but in this empty tank scenerio i would suggest utilizing PhosGuaurd in a Phosguard media bag. And be sure to rinse it well in RODI prior to placing bag in tank. Once you have done this until the PO4 reaches <0.03 then you can add sand, but mke sure sand is well rinsed in regular water in a bucket until the water runs clear. Simply add around your rock scape to cover the exposed bottom up to 1 and only one inch. Put your filtration in place. Mechaical and otherwise. Remove any PhosGuard and add in about 5 snails and or hermits, wait a week and retest for all parametetrs. If all good do a twenty % water change add your pair of mated clowns. I would do 10% water changes per week and feed a med size pair of clowns frozen foods x2 daily to equal ~ 1/2 cube per day. After a couple of weeks then start adding soft corals and LPS corals.

Don't forget to test water params weekly on a new tank and shoot for
1.025 ppm SG
400ppm Ca
8.5 dkH Alk
1400 ppm Mg
<10 ppm NO3
<0.03 ppm PO4

Enjoy. This is a great means to start a new nano tank. Any shortcuts and you will pay for them in the short future with lots of pests!

Great concise information and to the point. Exactly what I was expecting on this site. Will take it into consideration. Still mulling over the choice between a large sump system or a 30 gal nano, but if I go the nano route, I now have an excellent starting point.

 

[coralsnaked]

Oh yes and one other important consideration for either nano or display / sump. Heat factor. On a nano style closed top system w/ CF lighting you will look at about a +5 degree internal temperature above outside room ambient temperature. Best internal temp is a round 78 - 79 degrees. This means your ambient room temperature needs to be at or less than 75 degrees. Chillers are expensive and noisy. LEDs run significantly cooler, but if heat is an issue in your So. Cal home than this is another reason to consider tank + sump scenerio as there is more options for cooling a standard tank. But stay away from MH as they will put a lot of heat in your display. So will T5s but would be a better option for less heat. And hey sump design is a snap. there are lots of designs that work well for standard sumps on the internet and easily made at home. But larger tanks mean more start up costs as well. Nothing is truely cheap in this hobby, just lots of fun and work!

Think 40 gal breeder from PetCo $40 w/ an Eshopps HOB overflow box $60, a 20 gal sump Petco DIY $30 w 2 OC 36 watt PAR 38 LEDs $150. This would be my suggestion for an option that has the best of both worlds. And won't break the bank.
add 60 lbs of rock and 20 lbs of dry reef sand. A Sieece 2.0 for filtration pump $90 and maybe an Eshopps PSK 75 in sump skimmer $110 and a Lil Fishy 150 RX $25 Couple of Korallia 650 power heads $100. All new LED lights tank sump and equipment w/o rock, substrate, water or livestock ~$750. Cheap for our hobby

 

[thegrun]

Check out Age of Aquariums on Signal Hill in Long Beach for a good local fish store. The staff there is top notch and will steer you in the right direction. There are also two very good saltwater clubs in the area, SCRK which meets at 6pm on the 3rd Sunday of the month at Age of Aquariums and SCMAS which meets at the IHOP on 17th street in Santa Ana on the third Friday of each month at 7pm. Neither club is meeting this month however due to Reef-A-Palooza which is the largest saltwater hobbyist show in the US held at the OC Fairgrounds this Saturday and Sunday. It will be well worth your time to swing by and check it out. While you are at it check out our local Reef Central forum:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50
You will find links to both clubs in the SoCal RC forum.

 

[zaitmi]

dont go for readymade tanks go to local lfs and get a custom made 25 to 30 gallon cube cheaper tank with rear chambers, it will be cheaper without sump headaches. The money you will save can make yo9u buy good led lights like kessil, rapidled, or ecoxotic panorama.

Dont worry 20 to 30 gallon is good start for beginners.

 

[SundaeBest]

Check out Age of Aquariums on Signal Hill in Long Beach for a good local fish store. The staff there is top notch and will steer you in the right direction. There are also two very good saltwater clubs in the area, SCRK which meets at 6pm on the 3rd Sunday of the month at Age of Aquariums and SCMAS which meets at the IHOP on 17th street in Santa Ana on the third Friday of each month at 7pm. Neither club is meeting this month however due to Reef-A-Palooza which is the largest saltwater hobbyist show in the US held at the OC Fairgrounds this Saturday and Sunday. It will be well worth your time to swing by and check it out. While you are at it check out our local Reef Central forum:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50
You will find links to both clubs in the SoCal RC forum.

Awesome! Ill try my best to checkout reef-a-palooza! Thanks for the info, I'm psyched to see what the local community has to offer!

 

[SundaeBest]

Update***

So I missed out on RAP, unfortunately I got caught up with work. But at least I've made up my mind, I'm going with a ~60gal glass tank and sump setup.

My question is: one of my LFS quoted me a start up kit at $1300. It comes with a 60gal tank (acrylic) with built in overflow box. A bubble magus protein skimmer, a sump by the same manufacturer and a main pump.

Most likely I'm going to keep shopping around because I would rather have a glass tank over acrylic. But my question is, is that a fair price? Do you think I can find better? I'm also browsing CL and the so cal marine club forum on this site for any deals.

Sorry for spelling/grammar, I'm on my iPhone
Once again, thanks in advance.

 

[acabgd]

Update***

So I missed out on RAP, unfortunately I got caught up with work. But at least I've made up my mind, I'm going with a ~60gal glass tank and sump setup.

My question is: one of my LFS quoted me a start up kit at $1300. It comes with a 60gal tank (acrylic) with built in overflow box. A bubble magus protein skimmer, a sump by the same manufacturer and a main pump.

Most likely I'm going to keep shopping around because I would rather have a glass tank over acrylic. But my question is, is that a fair price? Do you think I can find better? I'm also browsing CL and the so cal marine club forum on this site for any deals.

Sorry for spelling/grammar, I'm on my iPhone
Once again, thanks in advance.

If you're hard pressed for cash, I would rather be checking CL and waiting for a full used setup, which you could probably get for a few hundred bucks.

 

[Chevre]

If you're hard pressed for cash, I would rather be checking CL and waiting for a full used setup, which you could probably get for a few hundred bucks.

This.

I just got a full setup free minus skimmer. Went to buy liverock, walked away with tank, sump, 5 good pumps, heaters, had to leave stand and light hood as it couldnt fit all for the price of some live rock. Not bad! My first tank (75G) has cost me maybe $800 with very good skimmer.

 

[SundaeBest]

**UPDATE**

OK, so I'll most likely be purchasing a setup from another fellow reefer tomorrow. Here is a list of items:


1 - 40 Gal Jebo Rimless w/Overflow -- Tank Drilled for overflow overflow needs to be installed, Chad @ Coral gazers drilled it for me. "Brand new never seen water" I have been to busy with work and my move to even clean the tank after Chad drilled it.
1 - Black Stand "Brand New"
1 - Custom AA Sump -- Still in Wrap "Brand new never seen water"
1 - ASM G2 Skimmer w/Sedra Pump
1 - CPR Mini Media Tumbler -- "Brand new never seen water"
1 - Aquatic Life 4 Bulb T5 -- bulbs are 4 months old
1 - Rio 3100 "With suction cups and cleaned in vinegar bath"
1 - 150watt Titanium Heater -- "With suction cups and cleaned in vinegar bath"
1 - WP-25 Brand New in Box -- "Brand new never seen water"
2 - Koralia Mini -- "With suction cups and cleaned in vinegar bath"
1 - Koralia 3 -- "With suction cups and cleaned in vinegar bath"
1 - Chemipure-Elite 11.74oz -- "Brand new"
1 - Instant Ocean Calcium Booster -- 16.9oz "Brand new"
2 - Containing about 60 to 70lbs of Fiji-Pink "never seen water"
2 - 5g jugs
1 - Hydrometer
40~50 lbs dry Fiji rock

Now some questions:

- Is there any other equipment that is essential for me to start my cycling process?
- I plan on adding about 40lbs of the dry Fiji rock, and an additional 10-15lbs live rock. Will that suffice? I've read that anywhere between 1-2lbs per gallon is optimal.
- Where can I find a good LFS or live rock retailer in the LA/OC area?
- In my sump I was planning on having a refugium, will I need an additional heater/light for this?
- I want to have a black argonite sandbed. The finer the better, but I've read that you don't want your sand too fine (ie. sugar sand) because it will get blown into your corals with the current. What thickness/brands are suggested?
-