New setup

[gpodio]

Hi all, I'm in the process of setting up my first reef tank and coming from a planted FW background I'm obviously interested in marine plants. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions in the near future as I know nothing about SW, but for now I'll limit myself to saying hi and asking a couple of basic questions.

I'm setting up a 40 gal stretch hex with a 10 gallon refugium, I was initially going to use the 10 gallon as a sump but I prefer the idea of using miracle mud or similar dsb and macro algae as the main nutrient export. I don't plan to use a skimmer at this stage but that will depend on how effective the fuge turns out to be.

So here goes some of the questions I'm unsure of...

What are the most effective nutrient consumers for a refugium?

Any plants that shouldn't be kept along with corals?

Among the various SW plants or algaes that one would keep in the display tank, which ones are the fastest growers or the best at consuming nutrients?

Is miracle mud used to aid in supplementing nutrients for the macro algae/plants or does it serve a purpose on it's own other than providing an anaerobic layer?

And finally, what kind of lighting should I be using for the fuge? I have NO, CF and MH in the 75W and 100W range that I could use for the fuge, what's the norm?

I look forward to any suggestions or comments

Thank you
Giancarlo Podio

 

[kmk2307]

Hey Giancarlo,

[welcome]

I think the most effective nutrient consumers for a 'fuge are Chaetomorpha, some species of Caulerpa including prolifera, racemosa, and mexicana/taxifolia, Gracilaria, and Halimedia.

Chaetomorpha is a green nonbranching filamentous algae that grows very fast under moderate - bright lighting. I believe no toxins are known to be produced by this species.

Caulerpa is a green branching coenocyte algae that grows fast BUT produces an endotoxin (to protect itself from being eaten). When Caulerpa reproduces it breaks down some of its own cellular materials to form gametes. The "mother" plant dies and gametes and toxins are released into the water. In effect, all the nutrients the plant took out of your tank are put back into the tank along with some nasty toxins that could irritate / harm organisms in your tank. To prevent a sexual episode keep individual "plants" small, keep an eye on them and remove dead or very pale / transparent "plants," and some people say lighting the Caulerpa 24/7 prevents it from going sexual also. C. mexicana/C. Taxifolia, C. racemosa, and C. prolifera seem to rarely "go sexual" in captivity.

Gracilaria is a red algae that can grow very fast under varied lighting conditions. Some people have fantastic luck with it and it does nothing for others. I have not had good success w/ this algae in my 'fuge but you might. I believe it produces no toxins but may concentrate Bromine or halocarbons in its tissues to make itself taste bad.

Halimedia is an attractive, fast growing, calcifying Ulvophycean. It is probably something you would want to grow in your main tank. It removes a bit of nitrogen from the water but it also removes a bit of calcium as it grows. Be sure to keep your calcium levels up for this one. Other Ulvophyceans that you might like include Penicillus, Udotea,and Codium. Penicillus and Udotea are both calcifying and grow moderately well. Codium is a diverse genus but some of its members grow rather fast. I don't believe any Codium calcify.

I don't know of any algae / plants that directly harm corals but some will spread onto the skeleton of hard corals and may "choke" them out. There are likely species of algae that produce chemicals that inhibit coral growth but I am not familiar with any of them. Various simple formed filamentous algae or small-thallus algae like Dictyota can be harmful to a coral if they attach to its skeleton. Usually these algae are considered pest algae anyway. If anything starts growing very fast keep an eye on it.

If you have a 75w fixture available I would definately use it. I use two 42w screw-in PC lamps in "reptile" light fixtures I got from a pet store on my 20L 'fuge. With a 75w light you should get great growth out of all the algae I recommended (caulerpa, chaetomorpha, and gracilaria).

It seems Miracle mud is just a sand substrate that is fortified with iron and maye some other minerals. IMO (in my opinioin) ITS IS THE ABSLOUTE BIGGEST WASE OF MONEY IN THIS HOBBY. It is amazlingly expensive and the same results (IMO) can be achieved with an iron test kit and occational iron dosing. This paragraph represents my being disgruntled about what I believe is extreme overcharging for iron enriched sand. Please do your own independent research on this prodcut here at RC and form your own conlclusions. I would recommend you use a moderately fine sand and test your water often. To keep algae happy you need a stable and generally healthy tank with proper amounts / concentrations of calcium, phosphates, nitrogen (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates), magnesium, iron, and other minerals. Most of the "ornamental algae" in the hobby are adapted to environments with very low phosphates and nitrogen(which is good because that is what we strive for in our clean reef tanks).

Sorry for the long rant... I hope it is helfpul!
Kevin

 

[gpodio]

Kevin, that was extremely helpful, thank you.

Regarding the miracle mud, I've heard good things about it's effectiveness but bad things about it's price. Does anyone make their own so to speak? Could something like flourite be mixed with sand to get a similar effect? Or does everyone just use sand and dose iron directly in the water? What about other traces?

Finally, at what stage would you consider adding the dsb and macro algae to the refugium? After cycling?

Thanks again
Giancarlo

 

[kmk2307]

Hey Giancarlo,

The only alternative to using MM is my own - dosing iron. I think you will be able to find more about other mineral substrates that are good for growing algae here at RC. I would put the sand in the fuge before cycling so you don't have a "sand storm" of dust and sediment when you add it later. I had algae in my 'fuge growing before I added rock and I think it helped in the curing process.

Kevin

 

[beluga]

Hi,

MM is said to be Ã"šÃ‚«just yard mudÃ"šÃ‚» sometimes but this isn't the case.
It is mostly silica (quartz)and THAT is the reason why it works well (texture, weight and density). It is very good for the Ã"šÃ‚«advective effectÃ"šÃ‚» (water flow on top and through it to a certain extent). But sure to have a really good turnover IN the refugium itself (judge that by seing the tallest tip of caulerpa bend under the current direction).

See that site, but it is in German... this guy has a 1000 liter tank on MM.
http://www.korallenriff.de/markus_resch04.html

I,m a MM user myself: you have to think about this as if you have a yard garden. You would have to prune things and to Ã"šÃ‚«play Ã"šÃ‚»in it (once your refugium is established, NEVER swirl the refugium bottom!!! : it will release toxic waste from the anaerobic part).
Good luck!!
Beluga

 

[FloridaPets]

Caulerpa

Caulerpa

Caulerpa is a green branching coenocyte algae that grows fast BUT produces an endotoxin (to protect itself from being eaten). When Caulerpa reproduces it breaks down some of its own cellular materials to form gametes. The "mother" plant dies and gametes and toxins are released into the water. In effect, all the nutrients the plant took out of your tank are put back into the tank along with some nasty toxins that could irritate / harm organisms in your tank. To prevent a sexual episode keep individual "plants" small, keep an eye on them and remove dead or very pale / transparent "plants," and some people say lighting the Caulerpa 24/7 prevents it from going sexual also. C. mexicana/C. Taxifolia, C. racemosa, and C. prolifera seem to rarely "go sexual" in captivity.

all the nutrients the plant took out of your tank are put back into the tank along with some nasty toxins that could irritate / harm organisms in your tank.

Not all together true, but the results are the same. If Caulerpa removed nutrients from your water, it most have used those nutrients to grow. If it USED those nutrients to grow, then those nutrients are not the same nutrients. They have been transformed to differnt compounds. However, when the mother plant dies it does release a whole lot of gametes, which filter feeders love. It will cloud the water temporarily, and your nutrients will increase in your water. Most likely from the gametes becoming food for filter feeders and bacteria. The more food, the more bacteria. The more bacteria, the higher the nitrate level becomes.
For some great information on Caulerpa, get the Baensch Marine Atlas #1. Pages 246-324 are all about Caulerpa. With good information Caulerpa might be able to regain it's good reputation.

 

[kmk2307]

I have written in detail my understanding of Caulerpa's sexual reproduction and its effects on organisms in a closed aquarium system. I don't understand how what I said before was "not alltogether true," though. I try to give helpful, factual advice so John, I would appreciate knowing where I made a mistake. I believe you are referring to my saying Caulerpa releases nutrients upon sexual reproduction or death.

Caulerpa grows by uptaking nitrates, phosphates, and some larger molecules like ammino acids. It then breaks the bonds of these molecules and uses the nitrogen and phosphorous atoms to make its own stuff like xylose for cell wall material, organelles, other cellular components, and chemicals it needs to live. If the Caulerpa dies or reproduces sexually (which of course holocarpy leaves a dead vegetative thallus drained of protolast which was made into gametes) the nitrogen and phosphorous are "released" in terms of gametes, dead thallus material, and manufactured chemicals. These dead cellular components, released chemicals, and the gametes (at least the ones that are not eaten by filter feeders), are consumed by bacteria and decomposers. The waste products of these bacteria and decomposers (nitrate and phosphate) contain the same nitrogen and phosphate atoms that were originally uptaken by the Caulerpa from the aquarium water. I suppose saying "when Caulerpa dies or goes sexual, it releases nutrients" is technically incorrect. How about "when Caulerpa dies or goes sexual it releases nitrogen and phosphate containing 'materials' that in any coral reef aquarium system will be consumed and broken down to nitrates and phosphates.'

Denitrification bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites and then to nitrates. While doing this they are gaining energy and reproducing. In this case, once the bacteria have exhausted the sudden influx of ammonia (by converting it ultimately to nitrate) from decomposing Caulerpa materials, there will be a spike in the bacteria's waste product; nitrates. If the population of bacteria that break down ammonia suddenly shot up while there was a lot of ammonia present, it will drop back down to its "normal" level because there will not be enough ammonia to sustain it. Denitrifying bacteria don't make nitrates out of nothing.

Also, I agree that the gametes of Caulerpa are probably a good food source for filter feeding organisms, but depending on their neurobiology, they are probably not happily feeding after a Caulerpa sexual event in a closed system. Caulerpa produces and stores the antiherbivory toxin Caulerpenyne which is a neurotoxin produced by at least some members of this genus that severely retards many invertebrates exposed to it at certain (high) concentrations. I know there are some Journal articles on the web discussing the effects of this toxin on inverts but I can't seem to dig them up now.

I really like Caulerpa. I grow several species in my refugium and in my display tank. I do, however, try to keep individuals small by cutting the main horizontal runner back to about 12" once every couple of months. It seems that smaller individuals are less likely to reproduce sexually. FWIW, I also run the lights over my 'fuge 24/7 as at least some people seem to think this prevents this alga from reproducing sexually. I don't want to take any chances with a large amount of an alga that reproduces by holocarpy and produces and stores at least one toxic chemical compound.

Kevin

 

[FloridaPets]

I agree with you!

I agree with you!

Kevin,
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that you were lying or not educated on Caulerpa. I have this pet peve, you know when there is a fish kill in a lake or pond and the news reports that algae caused the fish to die by starving them of oxygen. I HATE THAT! Although the algae bloom was part of the reason for the fish dying, it was not the cause. This causes the uneducated mass population to beleive that algae is the cause of fish deaths everywhere. I just don't like it when generalized statements are used to explain an event. Your post back was very detailed and appreciated.

Caulerpa produces and stores the antiherbivory toxin Caulerpenyne which is a neurotoxin produced by at least some members of this genus that severely retards many invertebrates exposed to it at certain (high) concentrations. I know there are some Journal articles on the web discussing the effects of this toxin on inverts but I can't seem to dig them up now.

Although I beleive some or most Caulerpas do produce this toxin, I would say that not all do or atleast not in very high quantities. Many Caulerpas are great fish foods and loved by fish. In fact I have cured many differnt types of fish from many different ailments by using Caulerpa. I have also read that if you were to sqeeze Caulerpa juice into an aquarium containing Caulerpa that it will speed up the growth rate of the Caulerpa in the tank.
Again, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, sorry.
John

 

[danieljames]

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