new trigger tank problems

[boxo]

Hi,

I am coming off a reef tank bender and this is the first time I have ever kept triggers, and my first FOWLR tank, and for some reason I am having problems already. I thought this was supposed to be easier!

I have a 100gal tank that finished cycling about 2 weeks ago (3 week period), has tested 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 to 10 nitrate for over a week. The other parameters I have just tested are SG 1.020, PH 8.4, DKH 15. I have about 45 pounds of live rock, about halfway split between live reef rock and base rock that has been through the cycle. A deltec MCE600 skimmer has been on the tank for about a week and the tank has several hermit crabs, small species of snails and non-hermit crabs (no id) and some macroalgae.

2 days ago I added a midsize (5") pinktail trigger (Melichthys vidua) and a 3.5" Niger trigger (Odonus Niger). They were added in a space of a few hours apart, and they were both slowly acclimatized to the tank by adding a little of my skimmers output to the bag every few minutes for about 40 minutes. Both fish did a quick tour of the tank when they were added before darting into the rocks and extending their spines.

Neither fish has been observed eating so far, have shown no interest in any of the inverts in the tank either, though the niger trigger chomped on some of the macroalgae when he did his first tour.

I am not so much worried about the pinktail as he seems to be getting more curious and has been darting between his hiding space in the rock and a larger cave shape formed by the rocks in the last day or so.

I am getting concerned about the niger trigger however. He is still hiding out, but he is not just sitting in place like the pinktail was - he seems actively agitated and keeps slapping his curling fins into the rocks, and occasionally beats his tail against his hiding space. In the time he has been in the tank he has worn off the streamers on his tail and a couple of hours ago he darted out of his space, ran headfirst into the side glass of the tank and seemed to lay gasping on the tank floor, before darting off to his space again. His top and bottom fins are now looking quite ragged and torn, and I can see his fins curling against the rocks in his hiding space now. The triggers hiding spaces are seperate from each other and it does not seem to be that the pinktail is bothering him at all.

Does anyone have any ideas? As far as I am aware both triggers had been in their seperate LFSs tanks for a few weeks and were both acclimatised to a tank and eating frozen meaty foods. I have just re-tested all parameters and I will be doing a water change in about 12 hours or so when the store opens to get more water.

As far as I knew triggers have a reputation as being fairly tough, and I have heard some hide when they put in, it is just the issue of this guy beating himself up (he's not scratching his sides, just bashing his fins) that has me a little worried about him.

 

[Ladipyg]

0-10 nitrates tells me that tank isn't finished cycling. What test kit are you using? Is it out of date? If you have nitrates that high, I'm guessing you should also have ammonia. How was your tank cycled? Did the live rock need to be cured and that was the medium for the nitrifying bacteria to do it's job.If your live rock is from the original reef tank, it has all the good bacteria you need, but once new water is put in, it needs something to feed the bacteria. Don't be offended by the question. The reason I'm asking is I just had a friend couldn't figure out what was wrong with his tank after cycling it for 3 weeks. He added a bottle of bacteria boost and just left it for 3 weeks, filters running, skimmer, with no skim mate being produced, etc. Your cycling doesn't start until you put something living (fish) or dying (live rock needing to be cured, raw piece of shrimp, etc) and that introduces ammonia into the tank. (If you read Moe's book on cycling aquariums, people have even done it by putting urine into their tanks...not much difference from fish pee I guess!) The cycling begins from that point and considering the size of your tank 3 weeks sounds pretty quick. Like I said above, it may be a problem with the test kit...not a dip strip is it? Very unreliable.
If you did all of this, did you do a 50% water change after cycling prior to adding fish? Sound like your trigger maybe stressed from the water parameters, high nitrates will do that? How are you filtering your tank? What was the latest reading on your test if you will be doing a water change?
Just trying to help...lots of questions make for a clearer picture.

 

[Billybeau1]

First
[welcome]

Nitrates do not bother fish. This is not your problem. I suspect another type of water chemistry problem is bothering the triggers.

If your ammonia and nitrite are zero then I suspect your tank is finished cycling.

1. How are you testing specific gravity ?

2. How do you test dkh ?

Triggers are rather aggressive and there is something about your water they do not like.

3. What salt mix are you using ?

 

[reefer334]

Yes I agree with Billybeau1 Nitrates do not affect fish I wiould retest your water and a 3 week cycle is very short NTS( NEW TANK SYNDROME) can happen for up to 6 mnths.What did you cycle your tank with any fish?Because until you cycle the tank with an animal that creates lots of waste and is very hardy it will be hard to build and maintane your bio filter.I would by some damsel and cyle your tank with them or a hardy wrasse.Just as with your reef keeping patience is the key to keeping a fish only tank.Not sure about that type of skimmer but if it is not as efficient as a euroreef or an ASM I would upgrade that then.But skimmer will not help you until you havde a bioload in the tank and a healthy biofilter.This is just my opinions that has leaded to my personal fish only tanks being healthy.

 

[reefer334]

BTW WELCOME TO REEF CENTRAL ALSO.

 

[boxo]

No offence taken on the questions! I am scratching my head wondering what the cause is too.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11208574#post11208574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ladipyg
0-10 nitrates tells me that tank isn't finished cycling. What test kit are you using? Is it out of date?

AQI brand, bought fresh tests with the new tank. My Sera kit gives me near identical readings. The nitrates being 0-10 are more to do with me erring on the side of caution with the readings (ie it is at the extreme low end of the colour scale, maybe a tiny shade darker than the '0' result). So less than 10 for sure, some days it does seem to give an unambiguous '0' though.

If you have nitrates that high, I'm guessing you should also have ammonia.

I have been getting a 0 reading on ammonia and nitrite for about 2 weeks now, it is just nitrates that are occasionally non-zero.

How was your tank cycled? Did the live rock need to be cured and that was the medium for the nitrifying bacteria to do it's job.If your live rock is from the original reef tank, it has all the good bacteria you need, but once new water is put in, it needs something to feed the bacteria.

The seeded rock was moved in first, 1/2 the base rock added a couple of weeks later and the second half about a week before the triggers went in. For the first couple of weeks the tank was fed quite heavily (about half a finger sized piece of shrimp or squid stuck between rocks for the cleanup crew to eat every 2-3 days). All of the cleanup crew went all the way through the cycle without loss. Highest ammonia reading was 3 days in at 0.25, nitrite peaked a week later at 0.30, nitrate peak was 3 days after that at 0.20. So out of the 5 week period we have about 2 weeks of it being obviously spikey, one week of it settling towards zero and another 2 weeks of 0 or extremely near 0 readings.

After the skimmer was added there have been no further spikes or any ammonia or nitrite reading above 0. The skimmer seems to be working, went crazy when it was added first off and had to be re-adjusted for the new base rock when that was first put in. For a few days before the triggers were added it was pulling small amounts of dry foam, would only really spill over in the first half hour after food was added. The skimmer (deltec MCE600) seems to be quite good and maybe a little over-powered for the tank it is in (delted claim they rate conservatively, and is rated for 180g normal stocking, 100gal heavy stocking if i recall), but I wanted a little headroom given that triggerfish would be in there.

Don't be offended by the question. The reason I'm asking is I just had a friend couldn't figure out what was wrong with his tank after cycling it for 3 weeks. He added a bottle of bacteria boost and just left it for 3 weeks, filters running, skimmer, with no skim mate being produced, etc. Your cycling doesn't start until you put something living (fish) or dying (live rock needing to be cured, raw piece of shrimp, etc) and that introduces ammonia into the tank. (If you read Moe's book on cycling aquariums, people have even done it by putting urine into their tanks...not much difference from fish pee I guess!) The cycling begins from that point and considering the size of your tank 3 weeks sounds pretty quick. Like I said above, it may be a problem with the test kit...not a dip strip is it? Very unreliable.
If you did all of this, did you do a 50% water change after cycling prior to adding fish? Sound like your trigger maybe stressed from the water parameters, high nitrates will do that? How are you filtering your tank? What was the latest reading on your test if you will be doing a water change?
Just trying to help...lots of questions make for a clearer picture.

I was pretty sure I could get away with a quick-ish cycle given that the rock was partly from another tank just across the room. Other than the first ammonia spike there has been little to worry about, a few of the reefs cleanup crew went in there to begin with and all of them survived. I deliberately over-fed the tank just to make sure the rock would seed properly and that seems to have picked up OK.

The test kits seem to work OK, the ammonia and nitrate tests are 2 part liquid tests and the nitrite one is a single part liquid. All consistent with my older kits (liquid ammonia, nitrate, liquid+powder nitrate). The hydrometer was calibrated just a few days ago vs a refractometer at the LFS. The water has been changed out at 10% weekly through the cycle, source is tapwater, airated and primed and then instant oceaned, with a about a 1/2 teaspoon of seachem PH 8.3 maintainer added. Tapwater here is known as reasonably high in silicates but no phosphate or anything else of consequence. No hair algae or diatom outbreaks through the cycle, the cleanup crew seem to have pre-empted it somewhat. The skimmer seems to work, everything it pulls out smells horrible and is reasonably thick and dense.

The questions are fine, the main reason I am posting is because I can't think of anything obvious that I have done wrong here or not done.

 

[Billybeau1]

If you will answer my questions, I'll try to help.

I have run successful FO tanks for many years.

 

[Ladipyg]

I believe nitrates do affect fish, depending on the levels, otherwise why bother testing for them. I stand corrected on his levels, I didn't have my glasses on and read 100ppm, so that was my fault. 100ppm nitrates would affect a fish.
Beginning to sound more like a bacterial infection or a parasite problem...is it still eating well? They begin to stay hidden so much at the onset of a sickness or infection so they don't fall prey to a larger predator. Has the pink tail picked on it at all? Could it be happening when you're not around, causing stress...

 

[Billybeau1]

Ladi, I have had a fish only tank for over 7 years and nitrates at times over 160 ppm. Fish happy and healthy.

Believe me, nitrates do not affect fish until they get to a ridiculous level.

About the only problem a FO tank has with high nitrates is nuisance microalgae.

I'll repeat, nitrates are not his problem. Many corals are not affected by 10 ppm of nitrates either.

10 ppm is not much.

Try reading this fine article

Nitrates in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

 

[boxo]

1. How are you testing specific gravity ?

floating hydrometer, temperature of the tank is varying between 26c/78f and 28/82. specific gravity is 1.020\021. the hydrometer was checked against the holding tank for the pinktail (1.021 @ 28/82 degrees there, their refractometer got a pretty identical result - they said they calibrated it against solution earlier).

2. How do you test dkh ?

API KH test (sorry, meant that earlier rather than AQI), measures KH in DKH, 15 drops in 5 mils before colour change.

Triggers are rather aggressive and there is something about your water they do not like.

Well, just now I put some washed activated carbon in the post-skim chamber in the MCE600. I will change out about 30% today and do the same tomorrow I think, and I will see if I can get an alternate test kits used on the water at the store and do some more exotic tests on the water. All I can think about is that maybe at some point something bad has gotten into the base rock I used - that's all that hasn't already come from a working system. It is obviously nothing that has an effect on inverts and the pinktail trigger seems unaffected by the same stuff. His behaviour is more in line with what I was led to expect - quite shy but not obviously distressed or gulping or anything.

I just have nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, ammonia, calcium, magnesium, kh, ph, and a thermometer and a hydrometer to work with here at the moment. Tank turns over about ~15 times an hour or so, but there is a large skimmer, a desk fan blowing over the surface, and the powerheads all either disturb the surface or are pointed bottom-to-top in the tank so the circulation/gas exchange is fairly decent.

3. What salt mix are you using ?

Instant ocean.

 

[Billybeau1]

O.K. lets assume your testing is fine for now.

I would get your s.g. up to at least 1.023 slowly over the next week.

Most lfs's run their tanks around 1.022 or so. Maybe your triggers don't like the lower salinity.

I would ditch the swing arm and pick up a refractometer (about 50 bucks). Then you will at leat know what you s.g. is.

Next, how did your alkalinity get so high ? 15dkh is not earth shattering but higher than then recommended levels.

 

[LisaD]

Any chance of stray voltage in the tank? It seems something is irritating the fish.

What are you using to make up your water? If you kept a successful reef, and are making the water the same way, I doubt the fresh or saltwater is the problem.

I don't believe any well-acclimated fish would have short term problems with s.g. of 1.020. Definitely get either a swing arm hydrometer, or a refractometer.

BTW, I don't believe high nitrates do not adversely affect fish. IME, there are several fish especially sensitive to nitrates - puffers, seahorses, anglerfish, angels. I'm sure there are many others. Don't assume high nitrates are okay.

 

[boxo]

Stray voltage is a possibility, I will have to take a look and see if there is anything I can use to test for that around the house. I don't believe it is though as all of the gear is brand new for this tank, the hydor propellor pumps are 1s and 2s post-recall issue, etc. Nothing I can feel when I put my hands in, doesn't mean it's not there at a lower level, but, I will focus on the water issues for now.

I saw the pinktail trigger take a small slice of squid just a couple of hours ago, so at least things aren't terrible there yet. The niger does not seem any more diminished than last time I saw him, still trying to hide and use his fins at the same time though.

I've now done a 40% water change over the last few hours and changed the SG by 0.01. I went through the live rock piece by piece and removed one large piece that was obviously stinky - none of the others smelled of anything other than usual sea-smells. That piece doesn't seem to be anything producing ammonia or nitrite that are measurable with mine or the LFSs's kits, but may be some other life (sponge or snail or a small anenome or similar) that has died in/around it and is making life uncomfortable for other things. Doing another 40% change later in the evening.

 

[Billybeau1]

Lisa, good point on the stray voltage possibility. However I'll still have to disagree with you about nitrates and fish. I have kept a number of varieties of angels in high nitrates with no ill effects. I'm not sure I would categorize seahorse as fish. I can not speak for puffers and anglerfish.

boxo, as far as stray voltage, take a voltmeter and put one probe on ground and touch the other probe to the tank water. If you have any stray voltage, it will register.

 

[boxo]

I don't have a voltmeter around the house, is there some way I can earth the tank though just to be sure? Is there any easy way to do this by any chance?

 

[Billybeau1]

You could just buy a grounding probe if you want to be safe. I use one and it is quite effective.

 

[boxo]

Just a short update - the pinktail triggerfish is now moving out and about, and took several pieces of fresh cut up squid and shrimp on the end of a stick. He is now out and about (when I checked the rocks I put them back in a much more suitable stack for him to go into, organised like a big stack of horizontal hollow parts on the left hand side of the tank, the other side has a big hat shaped piece about a foot across which they both seemed to like).

The niger trigger seemed dead - totally unresponsive to food or hands near it, and moving rocks resulted in a rain of fine sand landing on it, but when I went to pick it up it growled and seemed to dart under the sand further back in the tank. Its rear fins now have a white line running their length at the ends and the tail is much more worn down. Not sure he is going to live but I am just going to leave him alone and do more water changes and see if he gets better. I had no idea their growl would be so loud, I almost jumped.

If I rigged up a stainless steel probe or something similar to the tank and connected it to the house pipes (there is an outlet for these near my tank) would that count as earthing it? Any reason this would not work as a temporary fix til tomorrow?

 

[Jerry W]

Personally, I'd remove the niger. See if the lfs will accept it in return. This fish is not acclimating well or is sick. It is quite possible the fish had some pathogen upon purchase that you didn't notice. My sense is that the niger will die in your tank if you don't intervene. If you have a quarantine tank, you could remove the niger to that system and see if it comes around. The fact that the pinktail is acclimating well kind of rules out a water quality issue. Both would likely exhibit symptoms. Don't discount the possibility of stress. The niger may simply be afraid of the pinktail.

 

[boxo]

I simply ran out of time to take him to the store I got him from today, and I had already caused him (accidentally) to race into a new hiding space twice today, and it seems rough on him. I dropped a piece of shrimp and squid nearby just before lights out and he showed no interest. It's not obviously a territoriality issue between the two triggers that I can see, since the pinktail came over to investigate the food I placed at the niger's side and scooted off as soon as the niger flapped his fins. I am holding off moving him because I think he had enough to deal with today without trying to catch him and bag him when he REALLY doesn't want to be disturbed. I will see what the LFS says tomorrow and see if I can find somewhere to put him if he's no better, I would hate to have his appetite come back in the middle of a reef tank.

 

[Jocephus]

I would personally, turn the lights off for a few days. The way you describe it sounds like stress to me. My rabbitfish does the same when I come near the tank, and I've had him for months. Leave the lights off for three days, don't mess with them (except to feed), and maybe try some live brine if you can get it.