Nitrate and ich issue

[satiger]

My original build thread is posted here : http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2676690

180G tank with 30G sump. Its a reef setup. All live stocks were transferred from seller's tank to mine on 05/20. All parameters were good till 6/16. That's when I started seeing spike in nitrate to 100. Phosphate remained 0. Up until then I was doing weekly 30-40 G water change. Its RO water. 40w inline UV always on.

Since 06/16 I started doing around 50 - 60g water change each week. 06/17 week noticed some fish covered with white spots, the dreaded ich I believe.

Should've gone with QT tank early enough, but though I could combat ich with DT. Frequent water changes didn't bring down nitrate that much expect one time to 50. Ordered no-ich marine and started the dose in DT. By then I guess it was too late, lost regal angle first, then one clown followed by google eye soldierfish.

Purple tang had white spots, eventually it fought off and the spots are reduced. Same with convict fish. No more scratching the rock or sand. I am planning to continue no-ich marine for next few weeks.

Last week I got Vortex diatom filter to trap any floating stage ich. Ran continually for 2 days and then 12 hours each day. Hope to keep this as part of maintenance going forward.

What I don't understand is what triggered this ich outbreak ?. The fish didn't have at the previous place and when I got them they were all happy and eating well. Does the nitrate played a role?.

What's causing this high nitrate in my tank?. I am running out of ideas to control nitrate.

Note: all corals and invertebrates are doing well. In fact already seen coral growth.

 

[Rover88]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1990809

Read the above, and check the Fish Diseases forum. There are dozens of threads discussing effective ways to treat Ich.


Short answer to how you got it? The fish already had it. You might have thought they didn't, but they do. Thats why people quarantine. Ich is most often found in the gills, it only shows up on the body with a weak fish thats immune system can't fight it off, or if the infection is very bad.

To my knowledge, nitrate has no effect on Ich. But excessively high nitrate might stress the fish which could help the ich establish a better hold.

How are you testing nitrates? Have you confirmed it with any other tests?

Could be your kit is off.

 

[satiger]

Thanks Rover for the quick response. I will read though the link on ich.

I am using salifert test kit for Nitrate and other tests. Any better test kits available?.

Some readings say I may need to 'introduce' beneficial bacteria to the tank to control nitrate. Any idea on that process?

 

[Rover88]

Thanks Rover for the quick response. I will read though the link on ich.

I am using salifert test kit for Nitrate and other tests. Any better test kits available?.

Some readings say I may need to 'introduce' beneficial bacteria to the tank to control nitrate. Any idea on that process?

I read through your set-up threads. You have an incredibly large bio-load so suddenly in a tank that likely did not go through a cycle. Time, patience, and big water changes are going to be what gets you through this. You do not need to pay for beneficial bacteria, just be patient and it'll grow to meet your needs. Expect the next few months to be a bit rocky as you cycle, get weird algaes, and other such things.

More then likely the livestock you bought has always had Ich, but it did not manifest itself until the changeover into your new tank. In order to treat it you will need to remove every living fish from the tank (Inverts and corals stay in the display) and run the display fallow (No fish) for 72 days. That is the recommended number.

To treat the fish, you either do the tank transfer method (Stickies are on this forum for it) or you can treat with Cupramine/copper. You have a lot of tangs and I've heard tangs can be susceptible to copper, but I am currently in the process of treating mine in cupramine and she is doing just fine. I made sure to quarter the dose and go slowly to bring it up to the full amount instead of the two-step process the bottle suggests.

Once you properly complete the treatment with cupramine (30 days is recommended by hobbyists, SeaChem says 15, I think), or Tank Transfer Method (14 days?, its in the sticky) you can then place the fish together in a quarantine tank until the fallow period is up. Only then is it safe to put them back in the Display Tank, otherwise you risk them getting infected all over again.

Yes, it is a painful process but its the -only- way. Do not trust any chemicals or products that are a magical bullet for curing Ich in your tank, thats not how it works. It might help with the visible signs, it might beat it back for a bit, but it will not make it go away.


As for your nitrates; You said you are doing 50-60 gallon water changes each week. Unless the water source you are adding already has nitrates in it (You are using RODI water, right?) this will reduce your nitrate by 30% each week. Eventually you will get it in line, and it will greatly help once your tank has had the chance to cycle.

EDIT: Salifert is one of the better recommended brands for your test kit, although there is always the chance yours is a dud. That is a very high amount of nitrates to get to in such a short time, but you also have a very large bioload.

 

[satiger]

Thanks Rover.

Yes, I am using RO water and once tested the source for nitrate and reading shows 0. It must be the bio load that is producing heavy nitrate. Yesterday did 55G water change and nitrate reading shows between 50 to 100 (in color chart). As you pointed about its about 30% reduction. In few days it will go up to 100 and possibility more which the color chart does 't represent. I will get another test kit and try.

As far as ick, its been a frustrating exp. First noticed in purple tang. Tried to catch him few times and he escaped. One time cold able to catch him and gave him a fresh water dip. I did see lots of white dots and scales dropped off from him.


Then transferred him back to DT. First day he didn't come out to eat, must have been stressed. Later on started eating like pig. At the same time regal angel would stop eating (stopped coming out of rock for food). Started working on QT tank. When he finally came out of rock, already very weak and was trying stay float. QT didn't help as I suppose it was already too late. A beautiful fish, I was mad at myself.


After no-ich marine and diatom filter, remaining fish are not showing signs of ick. I agree, QT is the best way to go. But to catch all these fish, literally have to remove all rock and corals to catch them, such a pain.

Hopefully tank gets settled soon...………. !

 

[Rover88]

RO or RODI? The different is there, and it can mean a lot! However, it would not be a factor in your nitrate issues.


You could also try feeding less, and trying manual removal of as much detritus as you can when you do your water changes. In your sump if you have the room vacuuming out, and using something (like a powerhead in your hand, a baster to squeeze with, whatever) to blast off the rocks and such in your tank to suspend any other detritus in the water column. Then your sump will collect it and you can clean it out of there.

Otherwise, frequent water changes will manage it until the tank matures enough it can take care of/consume the nitrate to a reasonable level... Mine is typically hovering right around 5-10 ppm.



You -can- live with Ich. Once this event is over, it may look like it has receded and the fish don't have it anymore. Some fish can develop an immunity or naturally have an immunity (Or just strong immune systems). The issue comes from that you will never know when it might flare up again. Introducing a new fish, a stressor like a power outage or territorial disputes, and likely a variety of other things could stress any fish or all the fish out and make them more susceptible. But there are plenty of accounts of people knowing they have Ich and just carrying forwards. Keep the fish fat and they'll live, but I doubt it would be a full life compared to if they didn't have the ich.