Nitrate and my Reef Tank (warning: LONG)

[Braindead3XL]

OK, gurus. I need a final word on this. I'm getting conflicting reports from people in the hobby that are supposed experts, and I need to know what to do before I dump this tank and give up.

A bit of background. I've kept freshwater tanks for about 30 years. Community tanks, goldfish, guppies, and more specialized ones (notably my prized Malawi cichlids). I've never had a problem with nitrate in freshwater. I've used eheim cannisters, biowheels, undergravel filters with power heads - all of which work fine once the cycle completes.

In August, a buddy of mine gave me his Biocube 14, so I took a chance and started a reef tank. I began with live sand purchased at the LFS, and some holey rock. I ran the tank with bioballs for a few days and waited for my live rock to arrive.

The live rock got here in amazing condition. It was from the gulf, and had more life on it than any live rock I've ever seen. That Fiji crap you buy in the store was lame in comparison to all the amazing life I had on this rock. Beautiful coraline, sponges, very mature scallops, several kinds of anemones (no apitasia), even some sea squirts and some small sea cucumbers. It was without a doubt the best live rock I've ever seen. I gave it a good rinse and light brush to sluff off any loose dead loss, and dropped about 22 pounds of it into the cube.

I was patient. I let the live rock sit for about 3 weeks. I watched the cycle which went like clockwork. Ammonia up, Nitrite up ammonia down, nitrite down, nitrate up... And there it has stayed. Nitrate up. WAY up.

I've progressively been losing a lot of the beautiful hitchhikers that came on my rock because of the nitrate. I added a couple of Kupang damsels which has kept my interest up (along with some tiny hermits and some Nassarius snails).

At the advice of my LFS, I purchased an additional magenetic stick-on pump to increase circulation, and I replaced the bioballs with matrix rock. I've been adding a solution called "special blend" which aids in the cycling process. Nothing has helped. Today, nitrate in the tank is about 80ppm.

Now, here's my real question. I've always understood that nitrate can only be removed from the tank by doing water changes, or by a dirty hack like vodka, or an expensive denitrification system. But the experts in reef tanks at 2 local fish stores have steered me in other directions.

The big loudmouthed guy who was quite nice but rather annoying at the new ebayfish store out East told me to turn the lights out and let the tank sit for a month. Don't touch it, don't feed it, just leave it alone and the bacteria needed to "eat" the nitrate will spawn on their own and from then on I'll never have to worry about water changes short of regular maintenance every couple of months. I called BS on this, and I'm still not a believer. I don't doubt that this guy knows his stuff, but I got the impression he might be fond of exaggeration. Frankly, I've heard stories about this guy from other fish people who have told me he's full of crap. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because I'd like to see his store flourish. But I don't want to let this tank sit for a month untouched like he urged me to do.

The nice young lady at another LFS in Franklin who has an absolutely gorgeous reef tank in a similar Biocube 14 complete with coral, inverts and delicate livestock said that she only does water changes every 2 to 3 MONTHS in her biocube 14. She pointed me towards a product called "Microbe-Lift Special Blend" and had me give that a whirl, still to no avail.

So, what's the real story here? One theory I have is that my full-of-life live rock has basically overpopulated the tank and the decomposition is too much for this tiny biocube to handle.

Honestly, if I have to do 50% water changes twice a week to keep the nitrate at 10ppm or less, then I don't want to deal with this tank any longer. I'll craigslist the live rock and sand and fill it with some nice south american discus. But my gut tells me that there's something staring me in the face that's plain as day, and once I get past that, things will be smooth sailing.

I welcome your advice and input.

 

[Pickupman66]

Great looking live rock and setup. dont scrap it. I have been reefing for years, and there are many ways to do things.

1. water changes dont eliminate nitrates, they just dilute them back to lower levels.
2. if you have a GOOD skimmer, Vodka dosing can truly aid in removing nitrates. I am currently doing this on my tank.
3. Denitrators devices CAN be expensive, but CAN also be made for a while lot cheaper. I have a Home made Coil denitrator that can cost about $40 or so with $20 of that being for the pump. if you want me to explain it in detail better, let me know.

How long has your tank been running total? sounds like you got yoru live rock from Texas gulf. not bad stuff, but yes if it had a ton on it, then in a new tank you can have a ton of die off.

the last thing I want to mention is that in a smaller tank, it takes minute changes to throw them off.

 

[pelagic7]

I started this hobby in Jan this year, I read a lot of forums and books about different methods of cycling the water and stabilizing your fish tank. I am not saying I am 100% correct all the time, but here's my 2 cents.

1. There are tons of theories out there, most of them work, if you do it right. If you tell people to dose vodka few years ago, people would say you are crazy. My point is, before you make your decision about right or wrong, you should do some research about it first. I've seen so many people thought there's only one way to do things for the fish tank, matter of the fact, there are ALOT of different ways to do.. but if you know the theory, it's all about input<=output.

2. To your cycling questions.

A) You don't have to change water when you are cycling, especially you are bringing a half dead live rock. The bacteria and creatures died during the transportation process will pollute your tank, and it takes time to get enough of amount of bacteria to process those.
B) Those bacteria doesn't need light, why bother?
C) The fastest way to cycle your tank is add no sugar soy milk to your tank. 1cc per 4 gallon for once, and add bacteria to your tank every day for 7 days. You will see Nitrite becomes 0 on 7th day, then you can start to have fish in there, believe or not. The down side is this method will kill every creature in the tank.

3. Nitrate.
It all depends on your bio load. Like I said, it's all about input<=output. Your friend can do water change every 2-3 month, maybe she got no fish, and she doesn't feed at all. If you are not planing to have TONS of fish(which you shouldn't), or SPS, I wouldn't really worry about it that much.

4. Water Change.
Since you have a small tank, I'd suggest you to just change 2gallon of water every week, or 1 gallon twice a week. Simply make some salt water ready, and use a gallon container to do it. It doesn't take you more than 2 mins..

It all depends on what are you planning to get.
A) Fish Only, don't have to care about nitrate, just watch for nitrite, but don't overload your system.
B) Coral only, your nitrate shouldn't be high since there's not much of waste source.
C) Mixed, no SPS, don't have to worry about nitrate that much either, as long as you don't feed much, and do your water change, you will be fine.
D) SPS.... wait til you read more stuff.

Welcome to the club

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

Welcome to the salt-water world!

I also have close to 30 years experience with freshwater (I had Tankanykian cichlids) and started my first salt water tank about a year ago. I also had no issues w/ nitrates with my freshwater tanks, so believe me, I understand your frustration!

To the above, I would add:

1) What is you water source for your tank water? Something I've learned (rather the hard way, I'm afraid), is that water suitable for a fresh water tank is not always suitable for a salt water tank! So, I think I'd start by testing the TDS of your water source. You'll need a TDS meter (you may find a club member that would let you borrow theirs).

2) Are you currently using a skimmer? Although a skimmer doesn't directly remove nitrates, it does remove gunk from the water that contributes to water quality issues.

3) There are several products for canister filters/sumps that can lower nitrates. Pura makes a product called NitrateLoc and Sechem makes a product called DeNitrate. Although the NitrateLoc didn't work for us (which doesn't mean it wouldn't work for someone else), we have had some success with the DeNitrate.

4) If you are using a sump or refugium, a ball of Cheato algea is an option. There are many types of Algea for sump/refugium as well as for the display that remove nitrates.

Good luck with your tank!

 

[commonstranger]

Braindead Im not typing out a five page paper here but if youd like some help I will do my best to help you. You can ask around about me hopefuly youll hear good things. Just shoot me a PM and let me know if your interested. I wish you and your tank the best.

 

[commonstranger]

Oh yeah I do have a good piece of advice for you. If you ever meet someone dumb enough to say they are an expert and they arent speaking at MACNA you get away from them as fast as you can. For you and your tanks sake. LOL

 

[mixer911]

First and foremost with Nitrates you need to understand where they are coming from before you can battle them. In your case since the tank has very little inhibitants and your not feeding a lot, it is more than likely leaching from the Live Rock. All that amazing stuff that was on the rock is part of the cause too. It looks nice, but does have some die off. Good live rock is not determined by what critters or life is on it, but by what is not in it. With that being said, water changes, good skimming and time are your friends. Time being the critical factor as it will not happen fast. 80ppm is high, but not abnormal. again time will hold the key. I would also stop dosing the Microb-lift also. No need to add stuff at this point, the Live Rock has all the bacteria you need, it just takes time to grow and colonize.

Just to add to this. The live rock has to have a chance to reach an equalibrium with your tank. Since it is an enclosed ecosystem the bacteria colonies need to grow to meet the demands on it. In the ocean where this rock comes from the levels were a lot less than in your tank. again I say the time factor here is key. Sorry, but things in reefing just happen Slow I wish my colonies would grow faster too, trust me.

 

[allgoodsystems]

I am by no means highly educated in reefing but I had the same issue as you. I tried the chaeto algae for about 6 Months. Didnt really help. Actually I thnk it caused more algae in my tank. So i tried this http://www.aquavitro.com/Products/alpha.html
and since then I have had no issues. Only takes a few drops depending on your water volume, smells like crap but works in my tanks.

 

[Esabasard]

I don't comment on here often, but I feel like I need to in this case. I think that maybe you are making this too complicated and not being patient enough. I have had mostly nano tanks in my saltwater experience and until the current setup, I have never used a skimmer or any other chemical additives. It looks like your cycle is complete since you have seen nitrites rise and fall, and you are keeping fish safely. Do a water change to dilute your nitrates. Without any coral, some nitrates aren't going to hurt anything. You will need to do water changes, or spend a lot of money on skimmers and other things, and unless you plan to replace the lights in the biocube, you won't be able to keep any SPS that will be greatly affected by the nitrates. PM me if you want and I will be glad to help, but I say do a 2-4 gal water change once a week for a few weeks and I think your nitrates will be fine.

 

[Braindead3XL]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I do appreciate it.

So, if I understand it correctly, it's probably not out of the ordinary for nitrate to be 80ppm in a tank that's only about 12 weeks old, especially if there's still a lot of liverock dieoff occurring. That's good news.

Also, am I correct in understanding that if I stick with this another 3 to 6 months, perhaps I can expect nitrate to get down to lower levels as long as I continue to be diligent in doing water changes?

Supposedly the Special Blend product contains the algae that "eat" nitrate, and adding it will accellerate their growth.

I guess perhaps I need to just be patient!

Thank you everyone for your tips.

 

[wku5]

i had a nanocube 12 and if the sponges in those things arent perfectly clean nitrates will build up, the bioballs in there are bad but u said they are gone. If detrious is sitting on the rock u said u put in there in place of the bio balls it will cause nitrates to spike up to. I killed my 12g nc because i didnt clean those sponges and keep those rocks clean and i also had a skimmer on it and done water changes.

 

[mixer911]

Right on track :thumbsup: The one frustrating part of this hobby is the waiting part. But in the end it will reward those who are patient.

As far as using the Microbe-lift, its not necessarly a bad thing, but there are lots of products that claim to be the "Cure" for something in our tanks. In the end I have found that the less things you add the better off you are. That stuff will help with a new tank to provide benificial bacteria in a tank that has none, but you started with LR and thats what you are buying when you by LR is the bacteria colonies in them. Nitrate is one of the chemicals we all as reefers are battling all the time. It never really goes away on its own. Water changes help subside it, but as long as there is a source producing it it will always be building up. Once your rock gets aged and stable it will have less inpact on introducing more nitrate to the tank (in the form of die off).

Hope this helps

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I do appreciate it.

So, if I understand it correctly, it's probably not out of the ordinary for nitrate to be 80ppm in a tank that's only about 12 weeks old, especially if there's still a lot of liverock dieoff occurring. That's good news.

Also, am I correct in understanding that if I stick with this another 3 to 6 months, perhaps I can expect nitrate to get down to lower levels as long as I continue to be diligent in doing water changes?

Supposedly the Special Blend product contains the algae that "eat" nitrate, and adding it will accellerate their growth.

I guess perhaps I need to just be patient!

Thank you everyone for your tips.

 

[mixer911]

i had a nanocube 12 and if the sponges in those things arent perfectly clean nitrates will build up, the bioballs in there are bad but u said they are gone. If detrious is sitting on the rock u said u put in there in place of the bio balls it will cause nitrates to spike up to. I killed my 12g nc because i didnt clean those sponges and keep those rocks clean and i also had a skimmer on it and done water changes.

Excellent point.... Sponges are nitrate factories if not cleaned regularly.

 

[AdrianBryce]

A cycle on brand new tank with uncured live rock will last anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks. Maybe you should have listened the the "loudmouthed" guy at Emerald bay, AND LET YOUR CYCLE FINISH, before you started passing judgment. I guarantee you he knows a hell of a lot more about this than you do. Also, I spoke with him today, and it sounds like you didn't replicate the advice he gave you in this thread very accurately. Are you sure you aren't the one who likes to exaggerate?

 

[Ebay Fish]

Thanks to all the Reef club members that called and texted me last night between 1 and 3 am about this post. Thinks for not thinking I'm a big loudmouth, exaggerated or full of crap. Thanks for the encouraging words from all of you. You all know that in the past ten years I've always recommended that you do a 10% water change a week or 20% every 2 weeks, after your cycle is complete. Never have I ever given such horrible advice as to do maintenance every couple of months. Since you guys know that I clean tank after tank after tank each and every week. So I will leave this misguided and and blatently false representation of what I said alone. Thanks for your support guys. You know who you are.:thumbsup:

Scott