No3, Po4

[justy]

Simple question? I suspect complicated answer.
How can one tank have Happy thriving sps with zero nitrates and phosphates, and some tanks require measurable levels or the corals struggle.
I understand the theory to feed more = import and more export but why would you not then get measurable nutrient levels?

Thanks justin

 

[reefmutt]

Simple question? I suspect complicated answer.
How can one tank have Happy thriving sps with zero nitrates and phosphates, and some tanks require measurable levels or the corals struggle.
I understand the theory to feed more = import and more export but why would you not then get measurable nutrient levels?

Thanks justin

Short answer is that the animals we are trying to keep are quite adaptable within a certain narrow range of parameters.
But I think you'd get a fair bit of consensus that measurable n and p do produce better, more rich and varied colors in sps.
With proper care, stability and nutrition, they will do very well with almost non measurable n and p but personally, I think they look a bit better with small amounts in the water column.
Another part of the answer is that there are so many other factors involved in keeping sps happy besides just n and p..
Proper lighting, flow, temp, chemistry, bacterial levels/strains, no pests... All of these play into it as well, regardless of n and p..

 

[itz frank]

I think the real answer to this is that sps need food and nutrients to survive just like anything else. Some people that have happy corals and 0s have probably found a proper balance between import and export and the relationship gives them enough nutrients while testing out as 0 even though there are nutrients being used. Kinda like 0ppm phos in an algae heavy tank.

Others, like myself have found it easier to monitor a substantial amount without increasing it such as 10ppm no3.

Those with 0s and No color are starving their tanks.


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[reefmutt]

^
This is a very good point.

 

[krzyphsygy]

These are very good points. My display tank measures zero's and color is pretty good. However the tank is 5 years old. My frag tank, using basically the same equipment, less LR, and is only 1 year old, does not color well. Zero's also in this tank. I think it does come down to maturity in some cases. I agree when no3 and po4 levels are detectable colors become more rich and deep. The balance is key and finding it can be hard. I dont run gfo or carbon except for about 3 hours every few months. I found that over long periods it strips my water of alot of nutirents and my corals are pale. I just run for a couple hrs to clean things up a bit. I find keeping nutients low is good, but their needs to be some. If this makes sense, I try to keep them just under detecable and my eyes do the testing in that way. Test kits say 0 but my eye say getting ready to show something.

 

[justy]

I think the real answer to this is that sps need food and nutrients to survive just like anything else. Some people that have happy corals and 0s have probably found a proper balance between import and export and the relationship gives them enough nutrients while testing out as 0 even though there are nutrients being used. Kinda like 0ppm phos in an algae heavy tank.

Others, like myself have found it easier to monitor a substantial amount without increasing it such as 10ppm no3.

Those with 0s and No color are starving their tanks.


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I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have just read a post by Bulent on ur on the same subject he references Eric Bornman and how on the reef there is very low detectable nutrients but huge amounts of food available to the corals. He says we must feed them carbon, bacteria, nitrates and phosphates. I think you are right successful tanks with low nutrients probably supply a wide diversity of nutrients to the tank, fish food, coral food, amino's, carbon source, bacteria.

Thanks justin

 

[Horace]

When i started with SPS I was paranoid about low po4 and no3. I fed 1/2 cube of frozen food per day. I did so because I wanted to be sure to keep those params low, because at the time, everyone said Zero Nitrate, Zero Po4 was the way to get amazing colors...I spend hundreds of $$ changing lights, using Zeovit, etc etc etc. Finally I just doubled/trippled the amount of food going into the tank, and almost instantly colors improved from a pastel/faded color to neons.....it was a night and day difference. The only significant difference was I could now measure some po4 and No3.

Ever since i started telling that story, (back in 2006) and was ridiculed for it!!!! I even suggested that adding some additinal nitrate was perhaps a wise move if you were measuring zero. Its so funny how things happen in this hobby, because now, you see this exact same thing happening. Even though I was fairly new reefer at the time, I knew that the Po4 and No3 was the reason...and yet noone believed me. Some even said I was being dangerous for suggesting raising No3.

Essentially my theory is that in the Ocean there are TONS of food, and very little no3/po4. But in an env stripped of all that available food, the no3 and po4 provide some artificial nutrition for the corals. Unless you have enough filtration to take in huge amounts of food added manually, and still are able to keep Po4/No3 low, then you are better off having measurable or even moderately higher levels of nitrate at the minimum. What amazed me was the number of SPS tanks I observed that had AMAZING colors, and even had No3 as high as 25-50ppm, but everyone still thought that would STN your corals, regardless of the fact that these tanks (mostly barebottom) were proving that theory entirely wrong.

Case in point, i had a buddy up the road from me who had a 4x110w VHO setup over his 90g. He had high nitrates at like 25-30, and obviously fairly low light overall. I had 6x54w, T5HO and near pristine water. I thought my tank should rock his... well guess what. He had a few sps up high in his tank that looked AMAZING. They all had great growth too...while my high light, low nutrient tank (staple of SPS tanks..) had #*@! colors and almost no growth. This went on for about a year before I figured it out....

 

[MichaelW]

0 n and p through starvation is the problem. 0 n and p but with lots of nutrients available to the corals as foods (like in ocean) is not a problem. There are many great tanks that measure "0" (however remember these are only hobbyist test kits here) But most all of them still provide lots of nutrients for the corals (lots of fish, lots of food ,aminos, etc).

 

[Horace]

0 n and p through starvation is the problem. 0 n and p but with lots of nutrients available to the corals as foods (like in ocean) is not a problem. There are many great tanks that measure "0" (however remember these are only hobbyist test kits here) But most all of them still provide lots of nutrients for the corals (lots of fish, lots of food ,aminos, etc).

IME that is not easy to do. Perhaps not even worth doing honestly. The best colors of any tank I've ever seen was in a zeovit tank with bare bottom and about 15 no3, but very low po4 tested with Hanna.

I don't like the look of BB tanks, but I will not fear nitrates....only po4...and my target will not be zero, but something closer to .02 or so.

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[Bpb]

Essentially my theory is that in the Ocean there are TONS of food, and very little no3/po4. But in an env stripped of all that available food, the no3 and po4 provide some artificial nutrition for the corals.

It's a pretty straight up and understandable theory that makes perfect sense. Corals are heterotrophic AND autotrophic. Sort of. In the ocean the amount of available food particles and live crustaceans for the polyps to CONSTANTLY feed on is frankly un-sustainable in our tanks. But they can get most if not all of their energy by actively feeding in the wild. SPS corals (to me anyway), appear alot more pale to the naked eye in the ocean than they do in our tanks...Probably due to lower zoaxanthellae amounts in their tissues since they consume so much of their nutrition though polyp feeding.

In our tanks they'll rely heavier on light and N&P to feed the zoaxanthellae to provide energy for cellular metabolism. There's just not near as much food to actively feed on so they use the next available food source

 

[justy]

It's a pretty straight up and understandable theory that makes perfect sense. Corals are heterotrophic AND autotrophic. Sort of. In the ocean the amount of available food particles and live crustaceans for the polyps to CONSTANTLY feed on is frankly un-sustainable in our tanks. But they can get most if not all of their energy by actively feeding in the wild. SPS corals (to me anyway), appear alot more pale to the naked eye in the ocean than they do in our tanks...Probably due to lower zoaxanthellae amounts in their tissues since they consume so much of their nutrition though polyp feeding.

In our tanks they'll rely heavier on light and N&P to feed the zoaxanthellae to provide energy for cellular metabolism. There's just not near as much food to actively feed on so they use the next available food source

Yes the above makes complete sense, but going back to my original question. Take Deboras tank zero N and zero P amazing tank, light colours great growth, we're is the food coming from? I can not believe that a few drops of amino's etc replicates all the food on the reef.
But clearly something is working at very low levels of nutrients.
Fascinating!