One clownfish down, one gasping for air

[uscgbeachbum]

So I've had 2 clownfish (phantom and snow onyx) in quarantine for a week and a half. Some of you may remember my post about them not eating. Well, after a couple days they appeared to be doing better. The snow onyx was always voracious while the phantom appeared to be more picky. I started Maracyn 2 treatment 5 days ago. They were eating fine until 3 days ago when their appetite went away. I chalked it up to the fact that Maracyn 2 can act like an appetite suppressant and that they only had another couple days of treatment. Their last treatment was last night. This morning neither of them came out of the corner for breakfast. I didn't think anything of it since I had planned on a water change + carbon this afternoon. I get home from work and the phantom is belly up and the snow onyx is gasping for air. I immediately do an 8 gal water change on a 30 gal tank. An hour later and the snow onyx is still gasping. I take a water sample and rush off to the LFS. All parameters are 0. I rush to another one to double check and they say 0. No real smoking gun or strong leads from either place. I come home and the snow onyx is in the bottom corner, not swimming, and gasping. I was planning on doing some formalin dips tomorrow for brook, but decided that he might not wait until then. He's currently at minute 30 of his 45-60 min bath.

What did I miss? I'm super confused as to what happened. Both the snow onyx and the phantom had various portions of their body which were solid white turn more translucent (more orangy for the snow onyx and more brown/black for the phantom) over the past few days. I've got some crappy cell phone pics I took tonight, but none of the phantom.

FWIW I'm running an AC70 with double amount of bio media and no filter pad. For precautionary measures I've got a Seachem Ammonia Alert (never registered more than half way between normal and alert.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

So the snow onyx has died only an hour or so after the formalin dip. Still no idea what caused it.

The white was nearly snow white when I brought them both home has slowly changed color. After close observation the white of the snow onyx has turned slightly brown in color.

 

[HumbleFish]

When you did the formalin dip, did you run an airstone? Formalin will quickly deplete the water of O2, which is one reason why most fish can't take the full 60 min dip.

Did you see any skin peeling which might indicate Brook?

I noticed you said you are treating the fish with Maracyn 2; which I assume means you suspect a bacterial infection. The problem with Maracyn 2 is it's Minocycline, and that only treats gram negative bacterial infections. And being it's almost impossible to tell the difference (without a microscope) between that and a gram positive infection, it's best to use a "full spectrum" antibiotic to cover all the bases.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

Yes, I ran an airstone the entire time. However, due to his rapidly deteriorating condition I didn't have the time to run the airstone for 2 hrs prior to dipping as suggested by leebca on reefland.

I didn't see any skin peeling on either clown. The only signs I can think of were the white areas fading to a brownish color, reduced appetite, and gasping for air.

I used Maracyn 2 as suggested by leebca on reefland as a prophylaxis. Should I have used a different medication?

Thanks!

 

[Newsmyrna80]

I see you mention a brownish color...could it have been velvet?

 

[HumbleFish]

I used Maracyn 2 as suggested by leebca on reefland as a prophylaxis. Should I have used a different medication?

If you combine erythromycin (aka Maracyn) with minocycline (aka Maracyn 2), then you've got a wide spectrum antibiotic (and that is what you want).

Otherwise, use something like Furan-2, Kanaplex or "Maracyn Plus" - those are all already configured to be wide spectrum.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

Thanks! I looked over the signs and symptoms of marine velvet and believe thats what it was. They showed absolutely no sign until about 10 days in quarantine. Would formalin dips every other day starting on day 2 have helped?

 

[HumbleFish]

Would formalin dips every other day starting on day 2 have helped?

Temporarily, but you would have had to treat with copper or CP for complete eradication. If it was Velvet.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

Just got off the phone with the LFS I purchased them from. They still have 75% of the fish when I bought mine in the store (including more snow onyx and phantoms) and all are healthy (they sold the remainder). This is a fresh, brand new QT setup with all new everything (tank, water, AC70, heater, media, etc.). The LFS believes the that the Maracyn 2 could have acted as a poison since they were tank raised clowns straight from ORA and likely have never been medicated for anything. Apparently, a translucent appearance is a key indicator of medication poisoning. I followed the directions on the Maracyn 2 to a T. Thoughts? I'm still confused.

 

[Deinonych]

The LFS believes the that the Maracyn 2 could have acted as a poison since they were tank raised clowns straight from ORA and likely have never been medicated for anything. Apparently, a translucent appearance is a key indicator of medication poisoning. I followed the directions on the Maracyn 2 to a T. Thoughts? I'm still confused.

I find that hard to believe. I've treated with Maracyn Plus (which includes the antibiotic in Maracyn 2) many times and I've never had a fish react to it. Clownfish are especially hardy, so likely there was another pathogen at work here.

 

[HumbleFish]

The LFS believes the that the Maracyn 2 could have acted as a poison since they were tank raised clowns straight from ORA and likely have never been medicated for anything. Apparently, a translucent appearance is a key indicator of medication poisoning. I followed the directions on the Maracyn 2 to a T. Thoughts? I'm still confused.

Your LFS is just trying to shift the blame. Fish taken out of the ocean "have never been medicated for anything" either.

Antibiotics can be "harsh" on any fish, or not; a lot of factors come into play. But saying that tank raised fish are somehow intolerant of medications is just ridiculous. If anything, tank raised fish are probably more likely to withstand the "stress" of medication than those plucked right out of the ocean.

Understand this is all directed at your LFS's "advice"; not you personally.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

No worries. Id just like to know what happened so i dont repeat it in the future. There was one coincidence though. About the same time as they stopped eating much was the day i removed the aquaclear ammonia remover insert for fear that it could potentially remove the maracyn 2. Any possibility it could have been velvet and not impact the remaining lfs fish?

 

[HumbleFish]

No worries. Id just like to know what happened so i dont repeat it in the future. There was one coincidence though. About the same time as they stopped eating much was the day i removed the aquaclear ammonia remover insert for fear that it could potentially remove the maracyn 2. Any possibility it could have been velvet and not impact the remaining lfs fish?

Velvet is a fast killer and highly contagious. However, if your LFS runs copper that could mask any symptoms, and those fish would seem unaffected until taken out of copper.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Velvet is a fast killer and highly contagious. However, if your LFS runs copper that could mask any symptoms, and those fish would seem unaffected until taken out of copper.

Yes!!! I learned that the VERY hard way!! I did not know that fish can be asymptomatic when exposed to low doses of copper which some LFS do run in their systems. I found this out recently reading a post by Snorvich. I'm sure when your LFS said all of his other fish were ok he meant it. But the poor people that took these fish home are about to find out what you did:sad2:

 

[Jeff000]

No worries. Id just like to know what happened so i dont repeat it in the future. There was one coincidence though. About the same time as they stopped eating much was the day i removed the aquaclear ammonia remover insert for fear that it could potentially remove the maracyn 2. Any possibility it could have been velvet and not impact the remaining lfs fish?

I'd ask the store if they run copper in the system, or look and see if they have inverts or Corals in with them.

To me it sounds like ammonia poisoning. You had no method of removal.
And all levels being zero, that's not right at all, not everything should be zero even, and in your description of your qt there is no method to control the levels to all being optimal, not saying they would be at alarming levels, but still questioning in mind.

Also never buy fish that aren't eating unless you are willing to take the risk, but I've never heard of captive clowns not eating, at least not without something fairly wrong with the tank.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

Thanks for all of the information. I really appreciate it. To add additional mystery (at least on my part) is the fact that prior to my fish dying I ordered additional Maracyn 2 through Amazon using a 3rd party vendor. I just got an email today from that vendor stating that there is a nationwide backorder of Maracyn 2 with no ETA from the manufacturer. Is this a coincidence?

 

[HumbleFish]

Thanks for all of the information. I really appreciate it. To add additional mystery (at least on my part) is the fact that prior to my fish dying I ordered additional Maracyn 2 through Amazon using a 3rd party vendor. I just got an email today from that vendor stating that there is a nationwide backorder of Maracyn 2 with no ETA from the manufacturer. Is this a coincidence?

Is this the f/w or s/w version? My understanding is that s/w Maracyn 1 & 2 are no longer made, thus the backorder. You can still use the f/w version... you just have to double the dosage, which can get expensive quick.

 

[uscgbeachbum]

I was unable to find the sw version anywhere. I found a post on reefland where leebca stated stated that the differences were in the strength (twice the amount of minocycline in the sw version) and vitamins for appetite suppression. So I used the fw version. The same version that is now on nationwide backorder.

Thanks.