SoldierFish3
New member
This is now my third post on this subjectââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. Hopefully third time is a charm. I am having a unique problem with keeping most species of crabs alive in my tanks. The time they live for varies but the result is almost always the sameââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ death. Nothing else in my tanks seem to be affected by what ever is killing the crabs (including anemones!) but they sure do suffer from the algae problems the lack of hermits and other types of crabs have caused. Listed below are 2 versions of what happened.
Detailed Version:
This all started last year when (after about a year of planning) I started my very first reef (20H see below). I liked the ideas that GARF had and had a friend that swore by their bullet proof tank methodââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. so I decided to give it a try. Everything was ordered through GARF except the tank and equipment. The first 2 months went by great, but despite the high calcium levels, I noticed that there was still not even a single small patch of coralline (I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know if that is related or not). About half way through my 3rd month I started to notice dead hermits. For the most part their upper bodies were intact but their lower bodies were usually gone. I started to wonder if something could be eating themââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but there was nothing to eat them in the tank! There was no real live rock just man made aragocrete seeded with live bacteria from GARFââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ so any kind of hitchhiker is outââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦(there are no cracks for anything to hide in the aragocrete and I have looked very hard for anything) and the livestock only consisted of soft corals, snails (Cerith, Turban, and Turbo), 2 false percs, and 4 green chromies. There were also pleanty of shells to go around. The months passed and soon I had no hermits left. I bought about 3 dozen more and they too met their maker in about a month. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s when I made my first post. With the help of fellow reefers on RC, I came to the conclusion that maybe the deaths were caused by under feeding. I bought 3 dozen more and increased the feeding and added algae pellets to my reefââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s diet. The new hermits lasted about a monthââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ also around that time I had my first anemone crab death. I replaced both the hermits and the anemone crab. Hermits.. all dead in about a month (the casualties are staggered throughout the month)ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ Anemone crabââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ dead in 2 months. Through all of this my water quality was great and I was successful at keeping a LTA and BTA along with various soft corals. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s when I started to suspect one of three thingsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦the things from GARFââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ the waterââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. Or the tank its self. I am a scientific person so I decided to set up an experiment. I started a 10 gallon tank with basic lighting and live rock from the LFS just for hermits. I used the same tap water, salt mix, and additives in both tanks. I then added 45 blue leg hermits to the 20H and 12 to the new 10. After 3 weeks all of the hermits in the 20H were deadââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and all of the hermits in the 10 were happy as can be. I posted my experiment on RC and not a single person could think of anything other than the 20H is somehow contaminated or the things I got from GARF were the problem. About 3 months later I had to evacuate everything from the 20H to the 10 because of the onslaught of the vicious cyanobacter armies invading the 20H due to the lack of hermitsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. Now here is the new twistââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. A month and a half after the transfer I started to see hermit deaths in the 10! After 2 months, all the hermits, an anemone crab, and a pompom crab were dead. I just added more hermits a week ago and for kicks put 5 in the 20H thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s on life support in my living room. The hermits were dead after 1 day in the 20H and I have lost 4 in the 10 since then. I can only think of a few things. First, could whatever compound that was killing the hermits in the 20H have leached into the coral plugs and been transferred to the 10 gallon tank when I moved the corals? Second, could it be a compound in my water that gradually builds up to a leathal dose despite water changes? Third, and this is strange, could it be that one of the corals is toxic to some crabs? One of my corals I received from GARF and still have is a small (5-10 polyp) colony of Palyathoa Zoanthidsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. I know Palyathoa does produce one of the most complex toxins in the animal kingdomââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and it is possible that the crabs (who are closely related) could share a unique pathway that is affected by the toxin thus causing their deaths while everything else remains unaffectedââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but with so many reefers keeping Palyathoa.. shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t there be a record of this already???
---End of detailed version---
Not so detailed version:
-Started 20H reef using the GARF method (see below)
-Had hermits
-After 3 months I had no hermitsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ all dead
-Other crabs started to die (anemone and pompom)
-Nothing there to eat crabs
-got more crabs
-got more dead crabs
-posted on RC
-decided I was under feeding
-got more crabs
-feed tank more and added algae pellets
-got more dead crabs
-all other livestock including LTA and BTA are fine
-water has always been and remains great
-Set up experiment with the 20H tank and a new 10 gallon tank using same water, salt, ect
-got more hermits in both tanks
-3 weeks later 20H has no more hermits and 10 gallon has all hermits
-post on RC
-2 months later had to move corals from the 20H tank of death to the happy 10 tank
-hermits start to die in happy 10 gallon tank
-10 gallon tank becomes not so happy of a place
-I curse the gods and ask why????
Possible reasons??:
-First, could whatever compound that was killing the hermits in the 20H have leached into the coral plugs and been transferred to the 10 gallon tank when I moved the corals?
-Second, could it be a compound in my water that gradually builds up to a leathal dose despite water changes?
-Third, and this is strange, could it be that one of the corals is toxic to some crabs? One of my corals I received from GARF and still have is a small (5-10 polyp) colony of Palyathoa Zoanthidsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. I know Palyathoa does produce one of the most complex toxins in the animal kingdomââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and it is possible that the crabs (who are closely related) could share a unique pathway that is affected by the toxin thus causing their deaths while everything else remains unaffectedââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but with so many reefers keeping Palyathoa.. shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t there be a record of this already???
---End of not so detailed version---
Please respondââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ like Johnny 5ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ I need more input!!!! Any advice is welcome. Thanks.
Tank Info:
20H system
2x65 coral life PC retro (1 10k 1 blue act)
DIY moon lights
1 maxi jet 600
1 supreme mag drive 7 (return pump from sump)
1- 25 gallon Rubbermaid tub for sump
1 - 5 gallon Rubbermaid tub for fuge
2 screw in 15w pc bulbs for fuge
I am using a DSB with a plenum
2 ebo jager 100w heaters
around 26 pounds of live rock (man made Aragocrete sculptures from GARF.org)
the Aragocrete has been cured and seeded
bakpak skimmer
2 false percs
4 green chromies
1 small emerald crab
4 peppermint shrimp in sump
3 fan worms
lots of macro in sump and some in tank
Moved to 10 gallon:
several loose green shroms
3 gorgs ( 2 of witch are now fighting black band disease)
1 Kenya tree
1 med rock of orange sand polyps
1 5 to 10 polyps Palyathoa Zoanthids
1 BTA
1 LTA
1 fighting conch
2 turbo snails and at least 20 various snails
10 gallon
aqua clear 200 filter with no media in it (its just for flow)
1 air driven $20 skimmer (works great)
2 15w coral life fluorescent bulbs ( 1 10k 1 blue act)
6 pounds of live rock from LFS
DSB with NO plenum
Various macro algae
2 pink tipped Haitian anemones
1 gold striped maroon clown
1 queen conch
2 feather dusters
1 small xenia frag
yellow polyps
water quality:
NO2 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 0.0 ppm
NO3 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 0.0 ppm
NH3- NH4 0.0 ppm
Phosphate 0.0 ppm
PH 8.2
Alk 4.0 meq/L
Ca 500 ppm
Temp 25- 27 degrees C
Salinity/specific gravity 3.06 / 1.0225
Detailed Version:
This all started last year when (after about a year of planning) I started my very first reef (20H see below). I liked the ideas that GARF had and had a friend that swore by their bullet proof tank methodââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. so I decided to give it a try. Everything was ordered through GARF except the tank and equipment. The first 2 months went by great, but despite the high calcium levels, I noticed that there was still not even a single small patch of coralline (I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know if that is related or not). About half way through my 3rd month I started to notice dead hermits. For the most part their upper bodies were intact but their lower bodies were usually gone. I started to wonder if something could be eating themââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but there was nothing to eat them in the tank! There was no real live rock just man made aragocrete seeded with live bacteria from GARFââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ so any kind of hitchhiker is outââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦(there are no cracks for anything to hide in the aragocrete and I have looked very hard for anything) and the livestock only consisted of soft corals, snails (Cerith, Turban, and Turbo), 2 false percs, and 4 green chromies. There were also pleanty of shells to go around. The months passed and soon I had no hermits left. I bought about 3 dozen more and they too met their maker in about a month. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s when I made my first post. With the help of fellow reefers on RC, I came to the conclusion that maybe the deaths were caused by under feeding. I bought 3 dozen more and increased the feeding and added algae pellets to my reefââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s diet. The new hermits lasted about a monthââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ also around that time I had my first anemone crab death. I replaced both the hermits and the anemone crab. Hermits.. all dead in about a month (the casualties are staggered throughout the month)ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ Anemone crabââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ dead in 2 months. Through all of this my water quality was great and I was successful at keeping a LTA and BTA along with various soft corals. Thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s when I started to suspect one of three thingsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦the things from GARFââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ the waterââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. Or the tank its self. I am a scientific person so I decided to set up an experiment. I started a 10 gallon tank with basic lighting and live rock from the LFS just for hermits. I used the same tap water, salt mix, and additives in both tanks. I then added 45 blue leg hermits to the 20H and 12 to the new 10. After 3 weeks all of the hermits in the 20H were deadââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and all of the hermits in the 10 were happy as can be. I posted my experiment on RC and not a single person could think of anything other than the 20H is somehow contaminated or the things I got from GARF were the problem. About 3 months later I had to evacuate everything from the 20H to the 10 because of the onslaught of the vicious cyanobacter armies invading the 20H due to the lack of hermitsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. Now here is the new twistââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. A month and a half after the transfer I started to see hermit deaths in the 10! After 2 months, all the hermits, an anemone crab, and a pompom crab were dead. I just added more hermits a week ago and for kicks put 5 in the 20H thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s on life support in my living room. The hermits were dead after 1 day in the 20H and I have lost 4 in the 10 since then. I can only think of a few things. First, could whatever compound that was killing the hermits in the 20H have leached into the coral plugs and been transferred to the 10 gallon tank when I moved the corals? Second, could it be a compound in my water that gradually builds up to a leathal dose despite water changes? Third, and this is strange, could it be that one of the corals is toxic to some crabs? One of my corals I received from GARF and still have is a small (5-10 polyp) colony of Palyathoa Zoanthidsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. I know Palyathoa does produce one of the most complex toxins in the animal kingdomââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and it is possible that the crabs (who are closely related) could share a unique pathway that is affected by the toxin thus causing their deaths while everything else remains unaffectedââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but with so many reefers keeping Palyathoa.. shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t there be a record of this already???
---End of detailed version---
Not so detailed version:
-Started 20H reef using the GARF method (see below)
-Had hermits
-After 3 months I had no hermitsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ all dead
-Other crabs started to die (anemone and pompom)
-Nothing there to eat crabs
-got more crabs
-got more dead crabs
-posted on RC
-decided I was under feeding
-got more crabs
-feed tank more and added algae pellets
-got more dead crabs
-all other livestock including LTA and BTA are fine
-water has always been and remains great
-Set up experiment with the 20H tank and a new 10 gallon tank using same water, salt, ect
-got more hermits in both tanks
-3 weeks later 20H has no more hermits and 10 gallon has all hermits
-post on RC
-2 months later had to move corals from the 20H tank of death to the happy 10 tank
-hermits start to die in happy 10 gallon tank
-10 gallon tank becomes not so happy of a place
-I curse the gods and ask why????
Possible reasons??:
-First, could whatever compound that was killing the hermits in the 20H have leached into the coral plugs and been transferred to the 10 gallon tank when I moved the corals?
-Second, could it be a compound in my water that gradually builds up to a leathal dose despite water changes?
-Third, and this is strange, could it be that one of the corals is toxic to some crabs? One of my corals I received from GARF and still have is a small (5-10 polyp) colony of Palyathoa Zoanthidsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. I know Palyathoa does produce one of the most complex toxins in the animal kingdomââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ and it is possible that the crabs (who are closely related) could share a unique pathway that is affected by the toxin thus causing their deaths while everything else remains unaffectedââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ but with so many reefers keeping Palyathoa.. shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t there be a record of this already???
---End of not so detailed version---
Please respondââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ like Johnny 5ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦ I need more input!!!! Any advice is welcome. Thanks.
Tank Info:
20H system
2x65 coral life PC retro (1 10k 1 blue act)
DIY moon lights
1 maxi jet 600
1 supreme mag drive 7 (return pump from sump)
1- 25 gallon Rubbermaid tub for sump
1 - 5 gallon Rubbermaid tub for fuge
2 screw in 15w pc bulbs for fuge
I am using a DSB with a plenum
2 ebo jager 100w heaters
around 26 pounds of live rock (man made Aragocrete sculptures from GARF.org)
the Aragocrete has been cured and seeded
bakpak skimmer
2 false percs
4 green chromies
1 small emerald crab
4 peppermint shrimp in sump
3 fan worms
lots of macro in sump and some in tank
Moved to 10 gallon:
several loose green shroms
3 gorgs ( 2 of witch are now fighting black band disease)
1 Kenya tree
1 med rock of orange sand polyps
1 5 to 10 polyps Palyathoa Zoanthids
1 BTA
1 LTA
1 fighting conch
2 turbo snails and at least 20 various snails
10 gallon
aqua clear 200 filter with no media in it (its just for flow)
1 air driven $20 skimmer (works great)
2 15w coral life fluorescent bulbs ( 1 10k 1 blue act)
6 pounds of live rock from LFS
DSB with NO plenum
Various macro algae
2 pink tipped Haitian anemones
1 gold striped maroon clown
1 queen conch
2 feather dusters
1 small xenia frag
yellow polyps
water quality:
NO2 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 0.0 ppm
NO3 ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ 0.0 ppm
NH3- NH4 0.0 ppm
Phosphate 0.0 ppm
PH 8.2
Alk 4.0 meq/L
Ca 500 ppm
Temp 25- 27 degrees C
Salinity/specific gravity 3.06 / 1.0225
