please critique my sump design

[PapaKlix]

the design below is for an 80 gallon bow front tank, the cabinet footprint is what this is sitting on in the diagram below. i've tried to maximize the use of the space while still leaving room for a calcium reactor & tank. i also tried to follow the guidelines of stuff that i've read as i'm re-acclimating myself to the hobby. my math says this will be about 16 gallons total.

one thing i'm wondering is am i creating unnecessary work for myself with trying to squeeze out every square inch i can in the design?

please provide feedback, i don't get offended easily.

 

[drummereef]

Looks like a relatively small return area. The bigger the better in most cases. That's where you are going to see fluxuation due to evaporation. I'm assuming you'll be using an auto top off device to control this? All in all it's a relatively common design despite the 'step-back' refugium design. But that's mostly a cosmetic thing it seems to me. I think it would work unless during the build process you find the dimensions of the stand aren't quite what you have intended. There always seems to be a fudge factor when it comes to designing this stuff.

Are you building the stand, or is it factory built?

 

[sdc19982002]

I would make the return and fuge a common area. maybe seperate the 2 with eggrate. You wont be happy with a small return area (water volume).

 

[returnofsid]

Actually, I disagree and think the smaller return area is better. A large return area, require more evaporation before topping off becomes obvious. The more evaporation you have, the higher your salinity gets. Smaller return areas do require topping off more often, but this keeps your salinity more stable.

 

[Fizz71]

I'm missing something... If the water is coming in on the right high side were the fuge is, what is feeding the skimmer section? You ballasting looks like that is for retrun from the skimmer to the middle "return" chamber which is a good bubble trap...so where does the skimmer zone get fed from?

Also..most calcium reactors have a square footprint for stability so make sure that doesn't cause a problem.

And the only other thing that might cause concern is the height of the drop from the fuge to the return (4" right?). Even if you have an autotop off that's a good drop that may generate bubbles in the center of your return chamber depending on how much flow you've got going. Make sure your return will be clear of the walls.

Great job on the Google Skecth-up job BTW.

 

[PapaKlix]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14775828#post14775828 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
I think it would work unless during the build process you find the dimensions of the stand aren't quite what you have intended. There always seems to be a fudge factor when it comes to designing this stuff.

Are you building the stand, or is it factory built?

i built the stand, based off the sketch-up design. all the measurements are exact, but i still provided for 1/4" fudge from all surfaces.

in terms of the return being small, i was worried about this. the skimmer section is about as small as i can go and support my skimmer. that means i can only move the refugium up in order to increase surface area in the return? is this possible/advisable?

Originally posted by Fizz71
I'm missing something... If the water is coming in on the right high side were the fuge is, what is feeding the skimmer section? You ballasting looks like that is for retrun from the skimmer to the middle "return" chamber which is a good bubble trap...so where does the skimmer zone get fed from?

skimmer section would be the first recipient of flow from the tank with a ball valve on the return providing flow into the fuge. thanks for the comment on my sketch-up model. i love the program, so easy to build basic models like this.

 

[James79]

Fine job with the sketchup. One day I'll learn that trick and quit scribbling on napkins.
The larger the fall from fuge to return the louder the sump and likelyhood of bubbles in return. I'd leave it at 4" max fall when return is running and who cares if the fuge level goes up when pump is off as long as cheato is contained.
The height of the bubble trap will determine the max running level in the return.
IMO your design may be a little overcomplicated to build easily. I'd opt for an angled front instead of the step back and eliminate the bump out on the fuge. A gallon or so of fuge capacity wouldn't be worth the extra layout and build time to me.
This is your baby and I'm sure that however it's done all will be good.

James

 

[Whys]

Re: please critique my sump design

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14775657#post14775657 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PapaKlix

...am i creating unnecessary work for myself with trying to squeeze out every square inch i can in the design?

Yes.

Not only are you creating extra work with all those added sides and corners, but I'll bet you 10 to 1 you'll want to change it later anyway. It's nearly impossible to plan ahead on every little detail. It's best to leave yourself flexible.

If you go with a basic rectangle, you'll have some bow-space out front. That can be a good place for an external pump, reactor, or even a flood alarm. And if you change your mind on the sump design later, you can usually just move a divider or two to get what you want. The more twists, turns, and angles you employ, the harder it gets to change, or even just clean it.

Since you seem to be measuring this out to sixteenths of an inch , don't forget to leave some space around the sides for cords and rim-clips.

You might also want to consider what it would take to remove the sump from the stand for a thorough cleaning.

 

[PapaKlix]

ok, round two. i've spent way too much sketchup time on this anyway, i want to get it right.

i've moved the fuge up and changed the flow back to the return to a stand pipe. this gives more surface area to slow evaporation. i also got rid of some of the unnecessary joints in the construction. in case it's not obvious from the image, the fuge sits on top of two supports, one in the front and one in the back.

more thoughts please?

 

[Whys]

I really think you should consider an external pump. JM.02

BTW, what software are you using?

 

[PapaKlix]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14790760#post14790760 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
I really think you should consider an external pump. JM.02

BTW, what software are you using?

an external pump on an 80 gallon tank? i had considered it, but everyone in another thread suggested otherwise. one person even mentioned it would be hard to find an external pump with as low of a gph rating as i'd need.

software is google sketchup: you can download for free.

on this site there are some pretty good tutorials to teach you the basics

 

[Fizz71]

How open is the front of the cabinet? I'd be concerned with getting under the fuge to clean, or having detritus build up you can't see.

Why not just make the fuge the full height, run a small DSB in it, and let the water pass through a bulkhead right to left into the return chamber below running height. I would also consider a small indentation in the top of the fuge on the left side to handle overflow like you had initially but just for an emergency (drain clogged, water coming in too fast, etc.). That way you could also just make the sump all one height...again...easier to build.

And I have a 402KB skp file for my tank's sketchup file, you have a long way to reach my insanity level.

 

[PapaKlix]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14792184#post14792184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fizz71
How open is the front of the cabinet? I'd be concerned with getting under the fuge to clean, or having detritus build up you can't see.

Why not just make the fuge the full height, run a small DSB in it, and let the water pass through a bulkhead right to left into the return chamber below running height. I would also consider a small indentation in the top of the fuge on the left side to handle overflow like you had initially but just for an emergency (drain clogged, water coming in too fast, etc.). That way you could also just make the sump all one height...again...easier to build.

the front is fairly open, i would be able to get under there to clean but visibility with a DSB in the fuge would be sub-optimal. my concern with doing this is the return being too small and requiring far too frequent top-off.

And I have a 402KB skp file for my tank's sketchup file, you have a long way to reach my insanity level.

i'm at 389KB, almost there :lol: i actually made a model of my protein skimmer but hid it before creating this image.

 

[Fizz71]

By my calculations figuring on a 1 GPD evaporation you're looking at about 5 days tops before you need to topoff, 2 days without the area underneath the fuge. Either way I think I'd want an ATO.

Let me throw another suggestion...what if you raised the height of the baffles and brought more volume to the whole system? You only need enough open space at the top to handle a drain from a power outage. Your setup now would hold more than an inch of drain.

Anyway...IMO...the best option is ATO with a full half fuge...better for you and your tank.

And I don't know how your sketchup file is close to mine... I have a whole tank, frame (including screws), stand, lighting, couch, hardwood floor, joisting, and basement sump design on mine.

 

[PapaKlix]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14793143#post14793143 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fizz71
By my calculations figuring on a 1 GPD evaporation you're looking at about 5 days tops before you need to topoff, 2 days without the area underneath the fuge. Either way I think I'd want an ATO.

Let me throw another suggestion...what if you raised the height of the baffles and brought more volume to the whole system? You only need enough open space at the top to handle a drain from a power outage. Your setup now would hold more than an inch of drain.

Anyway...IMO...the best option is ATO with a full half fuge...better for you and your tank.

When you suggest ATO, are you thinking a local reservoir in the cabinet or plumbed from a remote location? I don't think a remote plumbed setup is going to fly with my squaw and i didn't think i'd have space for a local reservoir.

And I don't know how your sketchup file is close to mine... I have a whole tank, frame (including screws), stand, lighting, couch, hardwood floor, joisting, and basement sump design on mine.

you must be better at sketchup than i am. i had a similar problem with 3ds max. i would always create geometry when materials would suffice. i cracked up at the prospect of having screws in the model, i feel much better now about making the protein skimmer

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14791236#post14791236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PapaKlix
an external pump on an 80 gallon tank? i had considered it, but everyone in another thread suggested otherwise. one person even mentioned it would be hard to find an external pump with as low of a gph rating as i'd need.

The Poseidon PS1 would be appropriate.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~pumps_poseidon.html

Keep in mind, some flow is lost to head pressure, and you appear to be feeding your fuge flow with it as well. If it still seems like a little too much, you can also reduce the flow with a ball-valve.

Do you intend to use a chiller? Some hobbyists like to feed their chiller flow with their return line as well.

As to your sketch, have you measured the various fittings and valves? They can be surprisingly large and might require you to alter your design. Be sure to leave hand room for your unions and valves and turning them and such. I highly recommend using unions.

For reasons unknown, I have had the hardest time either downloading or running Google Sketchup. I've been wanting to use it for months now, but just got a download error.

 

[Fizz71]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14794263#post14794263 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PapaKlix
When you suggest ATO, are you thinking a local reservoir in the cabinet or plumbed from a remote location? I don't think a remote plumbed setup is going to fly with my squaw and i didn't think i'd have space for a local reservoir.



you must be better at sketchup than i am. i had a similar problem with 3ds max. i would always create geometry when materials would suffice. i cracked up at the prospect of having screws in the model, i feel much better now about making the protein skimmer

I was thinking remote. Every ehum...succesful...setup I had ran a top off from a remote location. (The one that failed miserably I topped off myself, but didn't have a sump either!) Even if it was just a small 1/4ID tube through the floor, ceiling or wall. The tube is so small it's easy to hide or fill if the tank moves or goes away.

And as far as my Sketchup madness I will say that the component search function it your biggest friend when it comes to screws, and pvc parts.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...entral/?action=view&current=240gSetupWire.jpg

 

[PapaKlix]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14797439#post14797439 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
Do you intend to use a chiller? Some hobbyists like to feed their chiller flow with their return line as well.

No chiller in the plans given my wife likes to keep the house icey cold in the summer (and the winter for that matter).

For reasons unknown, I have had the hardest time either downloading or running Google Sketchup. I've been wanting to use it for months now, but just got a download error.

if your problem is downloading the setup files, pm me and i can see about emailing them to you. there are ways of breaking them up to where that would be possible.

by Fizz71
I was thinking remote. Every ehum...succesful...setup I had ran a top off from a remote location. (The one that failed miserably I topped off myself, but didn't have a sump either!) Even if it was just a small 1/4ID tube through the floor, ceiling or wall. The tube is so small it's easy to hide or fill if the tank moves or goes away.

you know what? i was thinking about this after reading your post and arrived at the same conclusion - that the feed could be quite small. i think i will do that, at least eventually (a LOT to get done first). is distance a problem for most RO/DI units? the spot in my basement that makes the most sense to install the RO/DI would be almost on the other side of the house, at least 40 feet from the tank. would that be a problem? i was planning on getting the filter guys unit.

by Fizz71
And as far as my Sketchup madness I will say that the component search function it your biggest friend when it comes to screws, and pvc parts.

thanks for the tip, i'll have to check that out. your model cracked me up, i was like "floor joists?!" and then immediately realized why that would be important. i'm also a woodworker and it makes my ww projects go so much faster and smoother.

 

[PapaKlix]

i meant to ask, what size pump should i be using for the return (understand that some will be routed to the fuge)? again, 80 gallon display tank.

thanks.

 

[Whys]

You'll want something close to 500gph, after head-loss. There's a head-loss calculator here on the site and graphs can often be found for the individual pumps showing gph across increasing head-pressure.