Prazipro application question

[jmaneyapanda]

Although I am not seeing any difficulties, I am contemplating treating some fish with praziquantel- namely prazipro. However, while certainly possible, I think catching the fish and treating them in QT will have greater drawbacks than the positives of the intended treatment.
From what I gather, people in general would not dose the prazipro directly into their display tank. So my question is as follows: has anyone tried saoking prazipro into food items? Is it possible to overdose this medication?

 

[JHemdal]

jmaneyapanda,

Prazipro has been a bit of an enigma for me, I'm not certain of its formulation - I've only used praziquantel bulk powder. This advice only applies to that: I would not try soaking as a means to get praziquantel into food items as it has a tendancy to rinse off (it has low solubility in water). I've blended it into a gel food mix that I make myself and that works much better. Yes, it can be overdosed. 2ppm as a static bath in water (not for reefs of course) is a common dosage in tanks, while Stoskopf suggests 400mg/100g in food. This is an important dose in that other oral doses are often given in the form of mg/kg of fish body weight and requires that you know the weight of all the fish.

Jay Hemdal

 

[JHemdal]

Sorry - I forgot to add, there is a time limit on Stoskopf's oral dose of 4 to 5 days....

j

 

[pescadero]

3.8% praziquantel

where do you source the bulk powder?

 

[JHemdal]

Sources:

Fishman Chemical www.fishchemical.com (kilo lots)

Prazi pond (run a google search) about $120 per 100 grams from a variety of vendors.


Jay

 

[pescadero]

thanks for the links. although fishman is an order of magnitude cheaper (!) than the "economy size" prazipro forumulation i still can't justify that kind of bulk purchase for my personal use.

WRT in-tank baths -- i have tried the low dose 24h bath (Noga) and the high dose 3h bath (Noga). with the high dose bath i encountered some nasty side effects in a yellow tang (transient obtundation) that had tolerated the low dose bath quite well. i was wondering if you had any similiar experiences. AFAIK YTs are known to have problems with deworming, presumably an effect of toxins released by the dying worm load. i'm not certain whether this was actually an artifact of toxin release or a side effect to the drug at the higher level of exposure. of course the clownfish didn't care one way or the other.

 

[MyReefCreations]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12311917#post12311917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
3.8% praziquantel

where do you source the bulk powder?

What does the 3.8% signify?


J- thansk for the info- here is my concern- you have suggested a weight per amount of diet, not per fish weight (as you have mentioned). If this can be overdosed, how do you regulate the dosage? Is it at such a low rate that a larger consumption will have a negligible negative effect?

I know that Jungle makes a pellet that supposedly has praziquantel, levamisole, and metronidazole in it. Has anyone tried this?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Oops, sorry. Posted under the wrong user name. That was me.

 

[pescadero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12312808#post12312808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MyReefCreations
What does the 3.8% signify?

its the concentration of praziquantel in prazipro:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12311783#post12311783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
jmaneyapanda,

Prazipro has been a bit of an enigma for me, I'm not certain of its formulation ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12311917#post12311917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
3.8% praziquantel

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Got it, thanks.

Heres an idea I have- tell me what you think. My fish will essentially porpoise out of the water for flake food, they love it so much. If I soaked some flake food in prazipro (or more succinctly- placed a small amount of prazipro on some flake food), and let it sit for 24 hours-ish, do you think this would have a positive effect? Or would you think it would simpl;y "wash off" as Jhemdal states of the low water solubility?

 

[flameangel88]

Just in case you didn't get to read this thrd which have a lot of good info.

flukes thrd

My concern with just soaking prazipro in food and not treating the water is that the eggs can still (assuming flukes here) survive.

I've used prazipro 4 times in the last 3 years with only good results. And along with maracyn 2 I was able to treat a bellus angel with flukes and worms coming out of the eye to full recovery back in March.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I am not seeing any issues really. My only concern is that when I recieved my fish recently, I did quarantine them for 30 days, but I did not specifically treat for flukes or intestinal worms. So, now I have a a visit from paranoia, the destroyah.

 

[pescadero]

IMO its not paranoia. wild caught fish come with parasites and its rational to treat for them.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12364443#post12364443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
IMO its not paranoia. wild caught fish come with parasites and its rational to treat for them.

Yes, but I am also a firm believer in not prophylactically treating animals. I insist on a eductaed diagnosis. I know many people who prophylkactically treat fish. I feel this plays an unecessary stress on the fish, so I very closely watch fishes in QT. Treat as needed, not as practice. But that is just me opinion.

At any rate, can anyone see any feasible way to treat the fish with prazi while in the dsiplay? Sure I could catch them out with a lot of effort, but I'm not sure its worth it.

 

[pescadero]

I take the opposite viewpoint. Just because you can't see a problem doesn't mean that it does not exist. That's why they invented the term "subclinical infestation."

 

[MyReefCreations]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12365121#post12365121 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
I take the opposite viewpoint. Just because you can't see a problem doesn't mean that it does not exist. That's why they invented the term "subclinical infestation."

Yes, but alla niamls are not tretaed unfiromly at all times, correct? Just out of curiosity, do you treat all your fish for every ailment? To me, using the logic presented of "just because you cant see it, doesnt mean its not there" would mandate treatment for everything.

I am asking in a freindly manner, I would like to see your viewpoint, not criticize, or attack.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

DANGIT!!! I need to remeber to change my user name. thats from me ^.

 

[pescadero]

I treat for all of the eradicable pathogens that are commonly present on wild caught fish so that i can maintain a disease free colony. ich, brook, velvet, flukes, roundworms -- none of them exist in my display. the absence of the organism makes it impossible for me to have an outbreak of one of those diseases.

its just like having laboratory animals that are guaranteed to be free of infectious disease, or hogs that are raised in a clean room environment. they're not like the guinea pigs that you buy in a pet store.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12365956#post12365956 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
I treat for all of the eradicable pathogens that are commonly present on wild caught fish so that i can maintain a disease free colony. ich, brook, velvet, flukes, roundworms -- none of them exist in my display. the absence of the organism makes it impossible for me to have an outbreak of one of those diseases.

its just like having laboratory animals that are guaranteed to be free of infectious disease, or hogs that are raised in a clean room environment. they're not like the guinea pigs that you buy in a pet store.

Oh man, do I take exception to the leap of faith you just made! So all of those pathogens are only transferable by the actual fish? What about the rock, coral, clam, algae, whatever that was bought and put in the tank? Dont those contain water which can also contain the exact motile vector of the pathogens you claim? I think you are comparing apples and oranges. You claim you are in "absence" of the disease (which very well you may be), but if you are, it is shear luck, as I am guessing you are absolutely introducing our possible sources for the disease.

At any rate, without getting too far off tangent, how do you treat for the afore emntioned diseases? Copper is one of the most effective treatments for some mentioned, but also is one of the most severe to a fishes biology. Do you feel it is an worthwhile risk to absolutely negatively impair the fishe health, despite what conditions show?

 

[pescadero]

there is no luck or faith involved. everything is QTd and everything is treated. i do not promiscously add rock, coral, clams or algae. those organisms don't exist my systems because i take measures to prevent their introduction and maintain their absence. i don't see any point in debating the issue. i'm not out to convert anyone to doing things my way, and you either get it or you don't.