Protein skimmers??

jim, why do u consider DAS the best bang for ur buck? the DAS EX-3 Skimmer runs $700 while the Octopus Recirc Triple Pump Needlewheel 300 is $100 cheaper and has a 4" larger body chamber which to me would seem like a much better buy....but i have not seen either perform in person which is why i'd like to hear ur opinion.

also, anyone know how a bubble master 200 would compare to either of the above listed skimmers. it's in the same price range and only a fraction of the physical size.
 
Well, like I mentioned earlier, its the pump that makes a NW skimmer good. The Ocean Runner style pumps on the octos aren't the best. They run hot, and require modification to draw an adaquate amount of air and from what I have been reading lately, the newer models even have trouble after modification. The DAS/ Aqua Bee pumps are pretty much the standard on the higher end German skimmers.

But honestly, both will work. There are many options that are on the market now, which is good for the consumer. Personally, I like higher end skimmers and really would never consider either for my tank, but that doesn't mean they don't work.

Jim
 
My turn to ask some questions, I rarely do so I expect lots of attention. Just kidding!!!

Jim,

I agree with everyone else, you have taken this topic and made if your own, which I think is excellent. This hobby is so large and there is so much to learn, we should have specialists in the club that have put in the time and energy to become an expert on the subject. The true is with Justin and his T5's. I have many people I go to first about individual topics. I am an RTN and browning expert myself and can help any acomplishing that goal, if it one you choose to have please feel free to ask.

So, as Mark would say here is my thesis:

Whats the current philosophy of the efficiency of the plumbed in-line versions versus the in-sump type? Has there been any testing data that backs it up?

As well, what is the recommended usage for one? In sump or plumbed? I know most would think that the plumbed would be, but I have my doubts on trying to literaly force it down the throat of the skimmer. It really seems that most try to get it to suck out everything like a vacuum cleaner, but I know that because of the surface tension of the water, big stuff will not suspended readily and could break down the foaming action, degrading efficiency and therefor defeat the whole purpose in which the net gains could be less. As well, in combination with the above question, is it recommended for the sump area housing an in-sump be hi or low flow? I am noticing more accumulation in mine that has a lower flow, in which it probably drops out before it reaches the skimmer.

Why I ask, I want to obviously be using my skimmer in the best manner.

Currently my usage and philosophy is this:

Being a BB tank, I don't want anything in the display, so I do my best to keep it suspended and dump it into the sump.

I built a removeable remote sand bed that has constant volume that is fed by the overflow, this is a low flow zone, that feeds the sand bed by dropping out the suspended material when the water velocity is slowed down. This takes care of the chunks that don't float. It is then skimmed off, much like the JBJ nano cube add on surface skimmer, and dumps into the main sump where it is chilled/heated/carboned/GFO'd and picked up by the skimmer and pumped back up with a mag 7.

I consider the skimmer a polisher, and used like fine sandpaper rather as a vacuum as most plumb it first in line from the display and mine it more of last in line. What are your thoughts on this?

As mentioned before I put the gate valve on, and put an air line valve on it, but the thing just doesn't put out much. I can naturally assume because it doesn't have much to pick up, but I would like some more information on theory of set up and adjustment. I have never really figured out what is the air line valve REALLY supposed to do and it is better to have more or less air in the charge.

I am also interested in information you have found of wet versus dry skimming.

Figure I would pick your brain and ask all my questions now since we are on the subject before you leave.

Oh yeah, the skimmer is a Euroreef 6-2 (100?) and has a new pump on it, stock replacement.

Here is a quick pic of what I have. Yes its ugly I know, its funny how "temporary" things become "permanant". I hate apartments!!!

Thanks,
Doug

DSC00132.jpg
 
What I do know, Fluid Dynamics is a VERY advanced field that uses some crazy high level Physics, were talking Graduate and Phd stuff. When I was taking Fluid Mechanics, which is a class that basicly shows one how to do by hand and understand this article and more, (Takes about 1/2 to one hour depending on the size of the system and how complex it is. Think about that next time you are using the pump calculator on the home page)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/featurejp.htm

I asked my Professor if we would get into 3D for applications like this. As simple of an apparatus these things are, what is going on inside is very high level engineering and I respect the people who design the things. I wouldn't mind getting into it myself one day, it would be cool to design something you were into using yourself.

Think about it, you are basicly creating a vortex and stripping out the debris, and floating on top of bubbles, and finaly collecting it.

The pump as previously mentioned, chamber shape, length hieght, exhaust diameters and elevations, water consistency and height all have an effect on the efficency of the system.

To predict the results from simple changes or how to correct them for proper operation is not as straight forward as one would think and like everything else, is different from tank to tank.

I only hope to sponge off of your hard work to save me some, as I do realize how simple, yet complex these are. Which is why I have run to you in the past with questions like the above.

I was told it takes some big computers to model 3D flow in our tanks like this, pretty cool and an interesting subject!!
 
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Where to begin :)

The trouble with protein skimmers is the lack of available comparison testing. There was a long thread in the equipment forum a while back about ways and methods of testing which skimmer pulls out more dissolved organic compounds. We really can't accurately test these things. Too many variables that can throw off the results. If you think about it, there really is no practicle way.

The theroy behing inline skimming is that according to Calfo, proteins tend to float to the surface. As a result, the idea is to deliver that nutrient rich water directly into the skimmer, at a slow rate, and let the skimmer work from there. That gives you "raw" tank water.

Now, not all water can go through the skimmer, so the water that doesn't gets redirected back into the sump that in hopes it will pass through the skimmer at some point. I redirect mine into a filter bag that I have carbon in (I change it often), then through my refugium.

Now some detritus will/does fall to the bottom of my skimmer. That solid material is removed later with a gravel vac.

As for insump skimmers, you are getting that same water, but according to Calfo again, that concentration of proteins is compromised as it enters the sump. Why? I'm not sure. Can it proved? I'm not sure either.

So is it better to run one or the other? I think its just more about how you want to run you tank :) I have a way that I like, and works for me, and others (like Tim) have AMAZING tanks with insump units. Your tank is very nice too :D

Now my opinion on flow through the sump is that it should be slow. All of the flow should take place inside the tank allowing all the detritus etc, to be suspended, but thats the common concensus among those who run BB tanks.

I consider my skimmer to be a major source of waste removal on my tank. I don't feel that I can strip the water of too many organics to the point that I would see any negative results. But I also don't rely on it alone. I run carbon and a filter sock to help out. I also run phosban to keep the phophates low. I think its important to have an all around balance to the system. Some methods are more efficient than others at removing different things.

In your low nutrient tank, I wouldn't expect much production out of your skimmer. Its very large for the application, and I'm sure it keeps on top of your bioload very well. There seems to be a common misunderstanding that a bigger skimmer will pull out more stuff. Thats really not the case! Larger/oversized skimmers remove waste quicker, and then run idle when there is nothing else to remove. See, once the waste is gone, the skimmer can't pull anything else out. It will only work when there is something in the water column. So when you have a very efficient skimmer (like your ER) you can count on it to work hard for the first few months until it catches up, then the skimmate prodution will slow down. If it doesn't slow down, then your skimmer is undersized IMO, and is not keeping up with your bioload.

I wouldn't worry about the air valve. They are worthless. I don't use one.

With wet VS dry skimming, once again there is no real proof about which one is better. Some say wet skimming removes waste quicker, but dry skimming removes more solid waste.... So I do both. I'll run it wet one week, and when I'm bored, I'll switch it over to dry :D

Well, you asked for it :lol:

This has to be my longest post EVER..... Yeah, I'm a geek. I'm gonna go watch sportscenter now ;)

Jim
 
I'm sorry...just not in the mood to read those loooong posts at the moment, but I would like to make a suggestion to the OP.

If you are happy with your DIY recirc, why not build a second one and run two of them? The two DIY skimmers will probably do just as good as any single new skimmer you might buy and will save you a bundle. And you are already familiar with how to tune it.
 
Thanks Jim, I appreciate it. See, its not that easy with those long ones, actually have to compose it and.........make sure it makes sense, which yours did. I work on some of my whoppers for an hour or so to make sure I am explaining myself clearly and progress to a point(s) eventually.

Its a lot of work being a windbag, blowhard I tell you, but I do it for the greater good. I do what I can.........

Yes you are correct, the designs are so varied and with so many sizes, and lack of quantifiable data, its more like comparing apples and oranges most of the time that ultimatly comes to brand loyalty and personal experience/need. I have been happy with my Euroreef.

As far as two skimmers, twice the skimmer to empty, maintain and twice as much to go wrong and twice the pump to heat up the water if submerged.

I am very interested in the efficency of larger vs small skimmers, and if two could out preform one larger over all.

What is your opinion of the Skimmers plumbed in and not placed in the sump. The overflowing when they get crazy scare the willies out of me.

I know what you mean about not wanting to read them, I skim most and reread them later if anything is said and want to study it further.......I expect mine don't get read with that said. You know the saying, "Empty cans rattle the most"

:bounce1::bounce1::bounce1::bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:
 
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