Questions about Ich and Velvet

[A sea K]

Back in November I had a temp controller malfunction that went unnoticed. By the time I realized I had an issue most of my fish had become infected with what I believed at the time to be Ich and perished. Now that I have been reading up on causes and cures for ich i'm not certain it was ich and now feel it was actually velvet although I'm fully aware there is Ich present in my tank.
I have recently made several new additions to my system and am considering treating all fish and my system to totally remove ich but I have a few questions.
Of the fish losses I noticed I had two Assesors, a Randall's goby and two Halicheores wrasses remain virtually unaffected. Could this be possible with either Ich or Velvet and why so? My planned method of eradicating the Ich will be a combination of tank transfer to a newly cycled clean system while my main system lies fallow for a 9 week period. I know this will remove any Ich present in fish and my system but if there is also Velvet involved will it also take care of that as well?

 

[MrTuskfish]

A fishless tank will take care of the velvet too. Velvet is extremely contagious, ,fast, and deadly. Because or the time and the fish that survived, I think its ich. TT is great for ich, but won't kill velvet. If you go through the TT routine and fish look good, IMO---that eliminates velvet. Google "marine ich" and "marine velvet"; its pretty easy to tell the difference. Sorry you lost your fish; your experience should be a learning tool for folks who try to "manage', rather than eliminate, ich.

 

[A sea K]

None of my current fish show signs of Velvet, it is the past occurance that leads me to believe it my be in my system. I have little knowledge of Velvet though so I could be entirely off base. I just don't want to go through the process of ridding my system of Ich if it won't take care of the "possible" Velvet as well.
I'll google for more info as you suggest but I only have my memory of what transpired back last November to try and determine whether it was Ich or Velvet and my memory sure isn't what it used to be. If Velvet is so nasty, and if my assumption is correct that it is already present, would it not already have affected my recent additions?

 

[snorvich]

If Velvet is so nasty, and if my assumption is correct that it is already present, would it not already have affected my recent additions?

Yes. Velvet kills quickly.

 

[A sea K]

I had a chance to do a little reading on Velvet yesterday. I was surprised to see that some use the same attitude towards Velvet as they do Ich, that being with a healthy immune system the fish can indeed live with it. Also by looking at some pictures of infected fish it re-enforces my first opinion that my fish succumbed to Velvet instead of Ich. It really is of no matter anyway as long as the tank transfer method(for the fish) and 9 week fallow period (for the display) will eradicate both then in the end all will be well.
I'll start disinfecting my 65 gal and getting it set-up over the weekend. This will be my "clean" quarantine tank after my fish complete the tank transfer. I'll seed it with microbater7 and give it 4 weeks before I start removing fish from the display and begin TT. That will give me an additional 2 weeks for a total of 6 weeks to allow the cycle to complete. I only have enough TT tanks to do 2 maybe 3 small fish at a time so additions will be spaced out at nearly a full 2 week interval to allow the bacteria enough time to adjust to new arrivals.
Do either of you gentleman have any tips you would like to add or any flaws that you may see in my intended approach?

 

[snorvich]

I had a chance to do a little reading on Velvet yesterday. I was surprised to see that some use the same attitude towards Velvet as they do Ich, that being with a healthy immune system the fish can indeed live with it.

Those people are not likely to be in this hobby very long.

Tank transfer does not cure velvet but it works great on ich. However the duration of the tank transfer process will allow velvet to exhibit and allow for a proper cure.

 

[A sea K]

"those people" would be Steven Pro. In fairness he does later state this is not fool proof and he goes on to endorse proven quarantine measures.

Here is a quote from his article in reefkeeping magazine and a link to the article itself.

Treatment Option 1: Natural Immunity

As with Cryptocaryon irritans, it has been demonstrated that fish can develop immunity to Amyloodinium ocellatum after several non-lethal exposures, and that this immunity can last for at least six months (Cobb, Levy, & Noga, 1998).

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

As for TT not a cure for Velvet as long as I dont see any symptoms during that process and the following quarantine then I'm in the clear and the 9 week fallow period of my display tank will eliminate the possibility of re-infection?

 

[snorvich]

I am familiar with Steven Pro's articles. He does not advocate UV as a cure for parasites. Best to use him as your help on this.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Six months of immunity (for some fish, in best case scenarios) is hardly my idea of a solution.

 

[A sea K]

I am familiar with Steven Pro's articles. He does not advocate UV as a cure for parasites. Best to use him as your help on this.

I'm sorry but I'm not following you on this. I've never suggested the idea of UV as a cure and was refering to a fishes natural resistance to it. I do see it mentioned farther down in the article but that is not what I was discussing.

Six months of immunity (for some fish, in best case scenarios) is hardly my idea of a solution.

I don't feel the article called this a best case scenario, simply that they held immunity for "at least" six months. It also does not state or make assumptions as to how long one could expect this to last. An assumption on my part would be till some form of stress lowered that immunity as would be relatively the same as with Ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I don't feel the article called this a best case scenario, simply that they held immunity for "at least" six months. It also does not state or make assumptions as to how long one could expect this to last. An assumption on my part would be till some form of stress lowered that immunity as would be relatively the same as with Ich.

I"m not a prolific reader of all fish health stuff; but everything I can remember about ich immunity studies suggests that immunity is ALWAYS temporary and often seems to involve only some strains of ich. My bottom line is the opinion and experience that shows that anything, short of totally eliminating the parasite, is a band-aid at best. Ich will always return and our forum has a continual supply of folks who are witnessing this.

 

[A sea K]

Can anyone simply tell me, have my fish been able to survive since November with velvet in the tank given good health and a natural resistance to it.
What I get reading here is how bad velvet is and a very rapid death is a certainty. What the above article tells me is this is not absolutely true. What I'm trying to deduce is whether or not I have actually had Velvet(as I'm inclined to believe) or has just been Ich.

 

[MrTuskfish]

As your research show, there just isn't lot of "pure science" available on velvet. There is more proven info on ich; but (IMO) I'm not sure that any of the real science keeps pace with the changing parasites and methods to combat them. SW hobbyists may spend a fortune on our tanks, but we are still a tiny group of folks. Funding for all of the info we'd like just isn't there. There is a lot that is known, however. The job for us (IMO & IME) is learning who has the facts we need and then trust them. I think RCs Snorvich knows ich (and similar parasites) as well as anyone in the hobby.
On your situation: I don't think there is much (if any) immune-related resistance to velvet, like there is (and has been scientifically validated) on ich. IMO, if velvet hasn't appeared since Nov., it isn't there. Ich easily could be.
Not directed at anyone in particular: If everyone would take the advice of every recognized "expert' and used a QT routine on all new fish, we wouldn't have this discussion every day. LA has estimated only about 5% of hobbyists use a QT. I just don't understand the thinking and would bet the farm that the number of QT users goes up in direct proportion to time in the hobby.

 

[snorvich]

My very subjective opinion on the number of fish that can develop immunity to oodinium is on the order of 3% or less. However, I have seen fish repress oodinium in the presence of a non-therapeutic dose of copper; that is why I am always concerned when folks buy from an LFS or other vendor that uses a low level of copper.

Ich on the other hand has (if I recall correctly) nearly 21 different strains and immunity to one strain does not mean immunity to all strains. Some of the ich strains are resistant to treatment with salinity lowering. I have never heard of any reliable information on resistance to a therapeutic dose of copper. Because of the nature of the ich life cycle, tank transfer will work all the time.

 

[alprazo]

Before I found chloroquine I experimented with infecting fish with velvet for 24 hrs and then running a 50w UV on a 10 gal aquarium for about a month. Symptoms usually never developed. One time I shut off the UV after a 2 weeks and the fish rapidly developed velvet and died. There was always velvet in the DT and I would use tank water to infect new fish. When they were placed into the DT after treatment they did fine.

Then one time I added an angel, after going through the same process. This time it broke out with velvet and within days all of my fish except for 3 had died from it. I think the parasitic load became too great from the first fish and overcame the immunity developed by the others.

So yes, I know that one can induce partial immunity to Amyloodinium in a fish, but I don't think it is a good idea. It does show promise for a vaccine however

 

[MrTuskfish]

Before I found chloroquine I experimented with infecting fish with velvet for 24 hrs and then running a 50w UV on a 10 gal aquarium for about a month. Symptoms usually never developed. One time I shut off the UV after a 2 weeks and the fish rapidly developed velvet and died. There was always velvet in the DT and I would use tank water to infect new fish. When they were placed into the DT after treatment they did fine.

Then one time I added an angel, after going through the same process. This time it broke out with velvet and within days all of my fish except for 3 had died from it. I think the parasitic load became too great from the first fish and overcame the immunity developed by the others.

So yes, I know that one can induce partial immunity to Amyloodinium in a fish, but I don't think it is a good idea. It does show promise for a vaccine however

Has a vaccine ever worked for an eternal parasite, I have no idea? I imagine the aquaculture industry is interested in a velvet cure and they control a lot more money than hobby does----perhaps something will come along. A chemist friend and expert reefer at a big university aquaculture research facility, says many people are looking for parasite cures in her field; with nothing promising on the horizon. BTW, I have some chloroquine and am planning to try it....on someone else s fish first. I'll let you know the results. You've made a good case for the stuff; but I've used copper for so long, with great success, I'm not changing what works. But for folks who aren't familiar with copper, it sounds like it should be considered for velvet or treating multiple fish for ich. IMO, tank transfer is the best choice for most folks treating ich, but is tough when you need to treat a bunch of fish at once. What's your experience/opinion with brooklynella and chloroquine?

 

[alprazo]

To be honest, I have not seen brooklynella for over ten years. I only buy TR clowns anymore. I don't think it is around like it use to be.

As for velvet. It needs to be clear that tank transfer and hypo salinity DO NOT work. The gold standard is copper and now I and other have had success with chloroquine. It is aslo well documented in the literature since that 70s that chloroquine works. Treatment must be initiated immediately meaning the the copper or chloroquine must be on hand, which is should be if you are considering adding new fish.