random info needed

[jusbechillin]

Just getting into salt water and need some advice.... 125 gallon FOWLR tank. The previous owners had 4 large triggers and one grouper. Wet dry system with Bioballs, nitrate sponge, carbon, and a skimmer. Aprox 1" crushed corral at the bottom of the tank and one rather large piece of live rock in the tank(1 ft diameter) the rest of which is lace rock.

Lost 2 of the fish in the transfer (the grouper and a trigger).
Put the other 3 (clown, picasso, & blue jaw) in the 90 gallon Leemar I have up and running at the house in until the 125 settled down from the move.

In the mean time the 125's Nitrates were reading 160+ and a friend recommended ditching the bioballs for something natural. I beat up about 30lbs of live rock into rubble and put it in place of the balls. Did a 50% water change. Added fresh carbon and nitrate sponge. Cleaned all filters and removed some all together. All other tests (ph 8, nitrite 0, amonia 0)

All the fish came down with pretty bad ich so I tried Kick-Ich... 2 mornings later I had a dead fish (bi colored angel that was in the 90 already) and all the other fish in the tank were breathing heavy, washed out looking(color was mostly gone), and barely moving. There was also a slimy coating over all of the dead corral/rocks in the tank. Even the hermit crabs were hanging out of there shells and not moving much. Fish wouldn't even look at food that I put in the tank.

A buddy recommended doing a 30 gallon water change in the 125 and adding more nitrate sponge/carbon and get the fish out of the 90 asap. I also added two Koralia Hydor 3 powerheads to the 125 to up the waterflow since all that was in there before was the returning water from the wet/dry.

Nitrates now <80 all other levels still good. All of the fish seem to be doing great now. Making full runs back and forth across the tank and rush up to the glass when I get close like they want to be fed. All of their color came back also.

Now I am not sure that the 125 was 100% ready for fish yet but it beats dying in the other tank....

What else should I have as part of the system for the 125? Would a refugium with more live rock and maybe a sand bed and/or Figi mud(recommended by a local salt water store) benefit the tank if I was will to spend the cash on it?

Any advice is appreciated! Sorry if I rambled on I've had a few drinks! Cheers! =0)~

 

[LisaD]

The first things I'd add are a good protein skimmer and more live rock. Be sure the rock is fully cured before adding. You can cure in a Rubbermaid tub if necessary.

I'd also make sure your test kits are fresh and accurate, and test your water frequently, as you have a lot of changes going on and need to regularly monitor water quality until you are sure things are stable.

I'd also strongly consider a refugium with macroalgae for nutrient export. I wouldn't worry about a deep sand bed or mud, though I would either remove the crushed coral and leave the tank bare bottom or replace the crushed coral with a shallow sand bed.

 

[jusbechillin]

The live rock that I replaced in the wet/dry system are suspended above the water line with water flowing over them and then the water flows into the first area of the sump. There is nitrate sponge, carbon, and a uv filter in the first submerged area. the second area has the skimmer and then the pump heading back into the tank. The water flow is surely too fast to use as a refugium... Can I convert the unit or should I just add a refugium since there is room in the stand for it.

"The first things I'd add are a good protein skimmer and more live rock" ------I have a good skimmer and with the rock in the wetdry and the peice in the tank I would say there is 45-50lbs of live rock in the whole system. How much would you suggest?

" though I would either remove the crushed coral and leave the tank bare bottom or replace the crushed coral with a shallow sand bed."

If I take out the crushed coral at the bottom of the tank I would have to stir everything up quite a bit and feel like I would be causing the new inhabitants more stress than it's worth...
You reccommend that because the sand allows bacteria to grow in it and the coral doesn't work as well for that? Anyways I gotta get back to work thanks for the help for a noob.

 

[LisaD]

sorry, missed that you already have a skimmer. what brand/model? they can vary a lot in their effectiveness. If you have a decent skimmer you are fine. if you decide to stock heavily, and yours is just adequate for the tank size, you may want to consider an upgrade.

if you are going to heavily stock or if nitrates remain a problem, then in addition to regular water changes, I'd also find a way to add a refugium. they are low tech, seldom fail, and work really well.

I like live rock in a tank system - high quality live rock seems to add quite a bit of stability in water quality and tank health. I usually go for at least 1.5 lbs per gallon, minimum of 1 lb per gallon (you can count the live rock rubble, I think). so IMO an investment in 70-100 lbs of live rock is in order. if you'd rather put it in a refugium, that's fine, but I'd make sure you have plenty of macroalgae too (Chaetomorpha works great, I use Codium and razor Caulerpa as well).

reading over, you said you just have 1" of crushed coral, which is probably fine. you may want to periodically use a vacuum siphon if you can, when you are doing water changes, to get out any trapped particles. IME trapped detritus particles can lead to higher nitrates. That's why I prefer either a shallow sand bed or a bare bottom tank. I'd be more concerned if your crushed coral was a deep bed.

sounds like a nice set-up. good luck with it. my first big tank was a 125, great size.

 

[jusbechillin]

Coralife super skimmer up to 125 gallons. I also have a Red Sea Berlin Triple-Pass Protein skimmer I was gonna throw up for sale.. which is better?

Is it easy enough to build my own refugium or should I just buy one?

 

[jusbechillin]

Oh yeah..... The fish still have pretty bad ick.... They keep rubbing up against rocks even scraping their eyes on them.... The clown isnt as active as the others any more..... Should I put them in R/O water for 5 minutes? (a friend told me this helps kill the ick). I do not have a quarantine tank... I am afraid to try the kick ick in the tank because of the result I had in the 90 gallon.... I am crushing fresh garlic and soaking their food in its juices... The clown would only eat tonight when I took a silverside and dangled it in his face like it were swimming... Any suggestions on the ick?

 

[LisaD]

don't put them in plain RO water! if you do a freshwater dip, adjust the pH and temperature so that it is the same as that in your tank.

are you sure it's ich and not velvet?

here are links to some very good articles on both. ich can be controlled with hyposalinity

can you buy two large rubbermaid tubs to either QT your fish or give them medicated dips?

Please read the following:

Ich
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

Velvet
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

QT
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php

hyposalinity to control ich (will NOT work on velvet)
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/hyposalinity.html

formalin baths
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/formalinbaths.html

I had sick fish in a DT where they were too large to QT - e.g. 8 inch grouper, 3.5 and 2 foot eels, 6 inch angel and puffers, etc.

I netted the sickest fish out every day for a 5 minute fresh water dip followed by a one hour bath in ParaGuard. I did this for over two weeks. I also treated the DT with chloroquine phosphate (not easy to get) and lowered specific gravity. I had seven sick fish, lost one. The rest have been fine for some time.

National Fish Pharmacy sells quinine sulfate, but recommends its use in a QT. This is one chemical with similar action to chloroquine phosphate that you CAN get.

Whether you have ich or velvet, copper would be effective, but I would be very careful about using it. You MUST have a copper test kit to monitor levels every day. Cupramine I think is the best one to use. It is a bad idea for a display tank, especially if you have any inverts. I avoid its use altogether because I have fish known to be very sensitive to copper.

most important - watch your water quality! if you are willing to put in the time to save these fish, plan to make up many gallons of salt water every day and be prepared to do frequent partial water changes. giving the fish the best water quality possible will be their best chance to fight this.

BTW, I saw a few posts on different hobby sites when I did a google search on Kick Ich of people saying it stressed/killed their fish. I don't know if that's true, I've never tried it.

 

[LisaD]

oh, and for the skimmers - not sure which is better. Isn't the Berlin capable of being used as HOB? Coralife too? if so, for now, anyway, I'd put one in the sump and use the other HOB. I wouldn't make too many changes in your system, except frequent partial water changes, at this time, since your fish are sick. if you medicate, you may have to shut of the skimmers anyway. I have heard Octopus skimmers are a really good value.

refugium - depends on how handy you are and what's your budget and discretionary time. I don't have much time and I'm not that handy, so I have bought mine. it was made locally and they don't sell online, so I can't recommend mine. ask on the boards for recommendations, either for DIY plans or brands to buy.

 

[jusbechillin]

No one wanted to come out for pictures... I kept the lights off all day, I was told that the lights would just feed the parasites(ich). The Clown didn't come out at all today but the other three were pretty active. No one wanted to eat. Anyways I am going to setup a QT and run low salinity like the articles you suggested to read recommended... Anyways I tested the water again.... Amonia .50, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 80, PH 8.4, Salt 1.020.

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[LisaD]

it does look like ich. I'd keep doing water changes to get ammonia and nitrates down, and try to stress the fish as little as possible.

good luck.

 

[jusbechillin]

Clown is dead this morning... Setting up a 55 I have as a hospital/qt tank... Bare bottom with some pvc pipes to hide in with a powerhead, a skimmer, no lights.... am I missing anything? Also is it okay to put the 3 fish I have left in the tank together? (I dont have any other tanks so its really my only option...) Also I was reading it said that bringing the salinity UP to fast can be bad is bringing them down to fast just as harmful? My current setup is 1.020 and going to set the new one 1.010. How often do I do water changes in a qt? Do I feed them lightly while in this tank or just like normal being careful they eat everything and no waste sits in the tank? Anyways gotta go buy a bunch of R/O water and get started. Thanks

 

[Recty]

Yes, lowering salinity fast is just as harmful as raising it fast. I personally wouldnt lower the salinity in the QT tank. If you do lower it, dont lower it any more than .002 per day. In other words, set it at 1.020, then the next day get it to 1.018, then 1.016...

All 3 fish will be fine in the same QT together. You might see a little fighting but with them in their bad state already, they probably will be more apt to just hide and sit, rather than waste energy fighting.

Anyway, the reason I wouldnt do the lower salinity is it will take you too long to get it going correctly. If it were my fish, I would IMMEDIATELY get that QT set up. Get a 5 gallon bucket, fill it about 4/5 full of fresh water, dump in some baking soda (1 tablespoon per gallon is about right) and put a powerhead or something in there to get some good flow to mix the soda and to keep the water aerated. After an hour, the pH should be stabilized around 8.2. I add enough methalyne blue to make the water dark (it helps with oxygen levels and keeps the fish calmer) and then about 5ml of the 37% formalin. Net one fish at a time ot of your display tank and put them into the fresh water bucket. Keep in mind they may thrash around a little or lay on the bottom. Dont worry about that, leave them in for a full 5 minutes or until they really start showing signs of distress, like jumping out of the bucket or laying on the bottom not breathing.

The FW dip treatment will kill most of the external parasites and a good deal of the internal ones depending on how far inside the dermis they are.

After 2-5 minutes of FW dipping, then place them into a QT. You can actually beat ich by doing FW dips every day for your 3 fish and making sure you do large water changes every day on the QT. When you do your water changes, siphon water out of the 55 from the bottom, you'll pick up ich tomites that are sitting there getting ready to swim. FW dip every day (dont use formalin daily, just for the initial dip) and siphon religiously and you can make it. Or if that sounds like too much work, start a copper treatment in the QT and make sure you keep the copper levels at the manufacturers recommended amount. You can forgo all the FW dips (I would do the first one still while going from display to quarantine) and just use the copper to treat ich, although copper can be harsh on an already sick fish. Not that a FW dip isnt, but a FW dip in a 5 minute max stress then back into a relaxing QT, whereas copper stresses the fish 24/7 and a lot of times keeps them from eating. The choice is yours.

Whatever you do, I would do it quickly.

 

[jusbechillin]

Stupid question... I bought pvc pipes and cut em down to size... the stupid things float! Did I buy the wrong thing or do you have to secure them somehow? I bought black PVC at home depot.. nothing special.. Anyways advice would be appreciated I need to get some hiding spots for my guys.... So far I did a 10 minute dip in r/o water at the same temp and same PH as the tank. He has now been in my hospital tank for over 30 minutes and seems great. 1.018 salinity on the hospital tank and Ill drop it .001 tomorrow and so on until I reach 1.009-1.010. Temp 79.5 degrees. Not looking forward to moving the rocks in the big tank to catch the other fish... Might have to drain most of the water into buckets for the little guy to get caught....

 

[Recty]

My black PVC BARELY, and I do mean BARELY, is negatively bouyant. Any slight upward current picks it up and moves it around. What I did was take a small piece of live rock and just zip tied it to the pipe. Who cares if it looks "bad" or not, its just a QT. This also makes it more stable so not only does it stay on the ground, but it also doesnt get blown all over the tank in your powerhead current.