Same Question keep being asked.. Read for yourself.

[kevinr88]

The Question is asked over and over..

Which should I breed?!?

A good question to ask:

I asked this before and I thought I owe it to all you kind folks that helped me to tell you what I think.

First ask what is in demand?

You have two options. Go with a fish that is very expensive and hard to breed that a select few only want or a fish that everyone in this hobby atleast sometime in there Fish Experince has and is somewhat afforadable. It would be my experince to get a fish that everyone wants in there tank and can somewhat afford.

This is my experince based on THAT principle.

Now they we have decided on a common fish we need to decide what type of hooby we are going to breed Fresh water or Saltwater? There are Postives and benefits to both and I will share that with you.

MY EXPERINCE WITH FRESH WATER BREEDING FISH:
Keeping with the idea of breeding and selling a fish everyone has had in there tank at one time or another and is always in high demand because new people are always getting into this hobby. I decided my two options where Angel and Discus as I felt that these two kind of fish everyone had in there fish tank one time or another in there life. I then decided to breed Angelfish. I bred Thousands of fresh water Angelfish. I had about 8-10 pairs. It was almost a full time job. My basement was packed with tanks. I would get $1.75 to $5 per fish depending type of fresh water Angel and who was buying them Wholesale or LFS. It took about a month to sell them from egg to selling size. I was not making ANY profit when I figured the cost for electricity (which is high), Water, food and all other costs... I LOST MONEY. I didn't even take in account my labor (time) I already was losing.

After having a utility bill of $700 bucks You have to get smart. We decided instead of heating each tank we would heat the room... WOW! Did that save money!!

Second I got tired of this new full time job So I cut my time in half by NOT cleaning the tanks... HOW?!? ... I bought lots of PVC (My profession is a Plumber) and had all the tanks set up on timers to drain part of the tanks everyday and fill them a certain amount per hour.. I bought beef heart for a $1 per pound from a meat market which was the cheapest and fastest way to feed these hundreds and hundreds of fish. I had my own brine shrimp hatchery that was all automated as well for the baby fish I was attempting to sell...

The problem. I MADE NO MONEY... I LOST MONEY! Looking back I should have done fresh water Discus they are easier in my opinion to breed and raise and also you get $6-$15 for Discus (of course your LFS sells them for $40) Compared to $1.75 to $5 I was getting for my Angels for the same amount of effort it took to raise my Angels I could have bred Discus. If baby Discus have enough space and are fed correctly they can be sold in several weeks so you can get a quick turn around for more money than Angels!

SALTWATER:

I have not bred saltwater fish YET however. Going back to my theroy of breeding something that everyone in this hoobby has bought at sometime or another I am considering breeding clowns. Why raise clowns? Well anyone that owns a Saltwater tank has them so they are always in high demand. They are somewhat easier in the world of saltwater to have and are good for beginners so newbies tend to have them and more Advanced people in this hobby tend to have them as well. So Just like the Angel and Discus in Fresh water fish. LFS are always buying them on the saltwater side of there business.

The "Nemo" fad maybe over but people still enjoy the movie and it is one of the first fish people think of when they get into the Saltwater fish hobby.

There are alot of types of clowns and regardless of the comments on this board you can see them forsale all over the internet and LFS for $40-$70 you can count on your local LFS giving you $15 and wholesaler $6 for these fish.

MY CONCLUSION:
So should I go Freshwater common bought fish or saltwater common bought fish? Well if you are doing this strictly as a hobby and THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO IT AS FIRST. Then it doesn't matter!! However if you are doing this as a business then lets look at the facts in my information above. Less people in this fish hobby do Saltwater beause they have heard rumors that it cost more to maintain and is harder to do. The fact is some of those rumors are true. So less people do Saltwater as a hobby compred to teh countless people who have freshwater fish in there home.

Clown for saltwater -vs- Discus of freshwater.

Clownfish will make you double the amount of money a Discus will sell for most likely. However, Clownsfish will take 3 months to have them raised to sell verse Discus that I talked about earlier which can be sold in several weeks done correctly. So saltwater Clownfish could cost double in food and utilites before you can sell them. I have not even taken in account the cost of Saltwater supplies that you don't have when doing frsh water. So it may look like you will get double for a Saltwater fish breeding but it is cost ALOT more in this example of Freshwater Discus verse Saltwater Clownfish.

Freshwater is easier to manage as a part time experince and more profitable to breed in this ONE example.

Thats all I have to say...

Now someone disagree with me..

I would love to know what you think!

 

[Dman]

Clownfish sold in 3 months has never been my experience, 6 months is a closer approximation.

 

[Cuervo]

I'm looking into this myself.

There are two very important cost factors involved. Capital investment and operating costs.

Capital being the money required for equipment and brookdstock. Most of it will be upfront, but it can also be slightly spread out if needed. ie - you don't necessarily have to buy all the growout tanks necessary on day 1. They could be purchased as needed.

Operating Costs - Water, Electricity, Salt, Food, etc.

The money coming in from sales must exceed Operating Costs, and the Capital Investment should be recouped within a reasonable period of time for the business plan to be a good one. Ideally, after the capital investment is recouped, some of the remaining profit will then be reinvested for expansion, and some will go towards paying yourself.

With any business it is extremely important to keep a close eye on operating costs, and when possible take measures to reduce them. It's a balance act though, because if you overdo it on reducing costs, you can hurt your growth unintentionally.

It is equally important to be careful on how you spend your capital. Buying equipment that is unnecessary can really hurt the bottom line.

In the first example, you pointed out a big one - by raising the ambient room temp, you were able to reduce the electric bill considerably. That's one great example. Others that people have mentioned on these boards, with regards to marine fish include stuff like: Growing your own food, making your own food mixes using stuff from the super market, and a whole slew of other things that range from making your own pairs to DIYing alot of the equipment and setup.

It is also extremely important to verify that there is a market for your product.

 

[Kathy55g]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8602499#post8602499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cuervo
I'm looking into this myself.

...
It is also extremely important to verify that there is a market for your product.

Ya, I remember when I started out, one of my stores told me that they would buy all the Ocellaris I could bring in the door. Um, that would be a lot of fish!. Her experience with local breeders was that they would have only a few at a time.

I am selling to 6 stores in my area, and still less than 200 fish get sold per month. I am grateful for that, but I could sell more if the local market were better. I have yet to ship, but I guess that is coming.

My point is, some things you can't plan for, so you can't go into this without expecting that things may not turn out the way you thought they would.

 

[kevinr88]

First off...

I have seen Clowns sold in 3 months. It all has to do with growth. That is determined by Heat, food, space and other factors. If it took 6 months then my point to my conclusion in this orignal post is even MORE valid. However, I know they have been sold at 3 months at a healthy size.

Second...

One of my points in this original post was that there is more profit in a freshwater Discus and charging less for the fish because that it can be sold in several weeks with less costs and less maintence. Then a more exotic saltwater fish like a clown in my example (However, I think the same is true with Sea horses and other saltwater fish as well..)

Whats even more Ironic is Clown are the more... Well... Somewhat EASIER saltwater fish to breed BUT pay out in terms of profit is far less than a basic freshwater discus that is sold for less money because Discus grow faster and food and maintence cost are FAR less... Also the work load on yourself is even far less because It more automated... The water in the tanks being drained and filled agin is automated... Feed is automated... The is the same room temp so need to heat all the tanks.. Brince shrimp can be grown with little to no out of pocket expense

I could sell 3-4 batches of freshwater Discus in the time it takes you to get your single batch of Clownfish to be at a healthy age to sell. The cost is less in food (beef heart $1 a pound when larger and brine shrimp that I can grow myself in my own hatchery when they are small fry) with no need of salt costs and other saltwater headaches and expenses...


Now... That being said do you agree with me or do you think I am way out of my mind....

Do tell

 

[Dman]

All are valid points and the argument of FW vs. SW is telling. But after it's all said and done, you're at the mercy of your market, local or otherwise. If you saturate your market with Clowns or Discus and are stuck with a couple of hundred or thousand fish, profitability is no longer the point; why you quit your day job is.

 

[kevinr88]

This is why. the first question asked in this post was...

"First ask what is in demand?"

However breeding something that is HIGH in demand cost more to breed than you make.. MAKES NO SENSE (as in my fresh water Angel Fish example)

You can always find a demand on a profitable fish IF you are willing to ship it to other places..

 

[Dman]

And provided shipping doesn't cost you more than your margin

 

[kevinr88]

Shipping is paid by the per buying the fish... If they buy over $200 in fish then shipping is free..

Helps the margins..

 

[Cuervo]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that one of the reasons that many people are breeding SW vs FW in this particular forum is that they like SW fish better.

It is after all, a SW website.

If it's strictly a matter of money and nothing else, then certainly there is more money in breeding something else - dogs, cats, horses, pigs, and cattle are much easier and usually more profitable than fish.

 

[kevinr88]

Well, I know people that losts there butts breeding horses and dogs...


But yes it is a SW site. I am just love the hobby of fish and I have all the equipment from my past experince with freshwater so I am trying to make and educated guess on which to do Freshwater or Saltwater.

 

[Cuervo]

I guess I don't get the question then.

This is a SW site, so if you ask people whether breeding SW or FW is better, they're probably going to say SW. You don't go to the Republican convention and ask if they people are voting Democrat.

If the question is, "Is there a profit in breeding clownfish?", then the answer is maybe. There are several people in here doing it, but it is not guaranteed money, and those same people have issued many cautions.

 

[mwp]

I'd be breeding Imperial Zebra Plecos if I could find them anymore...there's a fish that USED to retail for as little as $50, has been figured out and bred and yet now, for some reason, the cost has SKYROCKETED.

Matt

 

[mwp]

LOL, just found out WHY the price skyrocketed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_pleco

THIS COULD VERY EASILY HAPPEN WITH ANY HIGH-DEMAND / LOW FECUNDITY FISH like Bangaii Cardinals, or for that matter ANY Marine fish that are Wild Caught.

I guess that just goes to show that things can change in an instant.

Matt

 

[kevinr88]

NO my point was NOT to ask which is better Saltwater or Freshwater (Rep. or Demo.)

My point is when people get into this hobby (as I have) and look at an attempt at breeding fish (As I have done and may decide to do again) we look at the ATTEMPT to make money at it.

When in the Freshwater side of the hobby people consider Discus.

When in Saltwater people consider Clownfish.

BOTH FOR VERY SIMILAR REASONS....

So I thought I would do a very limited study to determine what is good to breed and why. (review original post)


However,

I was hoping people would debate on WHY they thought my finding would be wrong.... Like "No Clowns are better than breeding freshwater Discus because there are LESS water changes if done right..."

Why create that limited debate... Well... Its a forum ain't it???






So I am very interested in knowing you educated thoughts. Please respond.

Thanks,

 

[mwp]

I guess my point (and most folks true opinion) is ultimately, breed whatever the heck you like If you cover most or all of your hobby costs, great. If you make money, even better. But don't quit your day job unless you can AFFORD to!

If you're in it to make a fair chunk of change, well, you have my absolute unbiased recommendation, regardless of FW or SW, posted above. That's probably the best fish to be breeding at the moment for a variety of reasons. IF I could swing what it currently costs to locate and obtain the broodstock, and I wanted to make a MINT and focus on one species, that would be THE one out of every species available at the moment. It just so happens to be a FW fish.

In a more generalized view, IF I was looking at this to make money, as per my recent observation based on my visit and chat with Joe L. at RPI, he generates roughly the same revenue as our cichlid hatchery / wholesale operation produced, yet with only 1/3 the space (granted, I think he spends more actual TIME working on his clownfish hatchery). 90% of what he does is Ocellaris. It's a proven marine money maker, and considering the revenue it generates, vs. being a diverse African Cichlid business with as many as 200 species on the list at times...for those two operations to make the same amount of money, yet one uses far less space, the answer is crystal clear - marines can easily outproduce your average freshwater fish monetarily. However, they can be more difficult to produce that freshwater (i.e. the labor time differential I mentioned).

All of that would get thrown out the window IF you find one of those fish that is both EXPENSIVE and IN HIGH DEMAND that is in VERY SHORT SUPPLY and thus has gone WAY UP IN PRICE RECENTLY yet CAN BE BRED RELATIVELY EASILY...Imperial Zebra Pleco.

Another consitent money maker - Frontosa. Good broodstock can set you back a grand though.

@#$@! Why am I screwing around with half a dozen different marine species??!?!

Gotta spend money to make money...

FWIW,

Matt

 

[aomont]

Hi all,
Some months ago I wondered about fish breeding and was thinking on the L-plecos as the one Matt suggested here. However I was bit hard by the SW breeding bug and have joined this forum as soon as I found it. So I´ll go SW anyway...

I liked kevin text on his experience a lot !!! But a question keeps in my mind. Who is supplying freshwater angelfishes ? Is it real that this market is supplied by hobbists playing and non-profitable breeders ?
Please, I´m sure neither kevin or anyone here said that and the answer for the second question is a loud NO. I used the angelfish subject (you can substitute it for the fish species you want ) to get to a question that can be used is this evaluation. If someone is supplying, what makes it worth for them ?
A lot of points have been brought here like variety (main species + "the rest"), different feed regimens for clowns, recirculation, etc. But if someone somewhere is making profit of it, knowing why should be the next step and, MAYBE, you don´t need to change species or from FW to SW and back again.

Anderson.

 

[mwp]

FWIW, I can say that locally bred Angelfish were always FAR more sturdier & healthier fish than what's imported from Asia - we paid 3 times what you'd pay to an area wholesaler for the privately bred fish, and we bought just about everything we could from one high quality breeder who supplied a few standard and a few very unusual varieties. Keep in mind though, we were still only paying about $3 a fish vs. $1 wholesale.

Matt

 

[mwp]

This is in response to a PM from Kevin...I felt it was probably best to just post it here and share my thoughts with the group.

Well, right now, as I stated in my earlier responses, if I was breeding PURELY to make money, I'd be breeding Imperial Zebra Plecos. Even when relatively "flowing" into the country, the cheapest you ever saw them was around $50 retail...double what you get for clownfish. Their care and breeding has more than been nailed down; it isn't a terribly difficult thing to accomplish. They don't take up ANY space compared to some of the other fish you've mentioned. With the current retail rate hovering around $150-$200 per fish, and demand that hasn't dropped, and the fact that "until further notice" this species WILL NOT be exported from the wild, the Imperial Zebra Pleco is BAR NONE the #1 fish to breed at the moment. I would literally be putting all my eggs in this basket if I were to pick the #1 fish for most profit potential. Considering the size of their batches, it would require a lot of broodstock. But making a name for yourself as "THE" source for captive bred (and thus LEGAL) Imperial Zebra Plecos, the business comes to YOU. I suspect that there is probably more than one individual already working on doing just what I've described. The only difference between Imperial Zebra Plecos and Clownfish is fecundity...you might get 400 ocellaris per spawn, but only 25 IZP's per spawn. You need a LOT more broodstock in some respects, but on the flipside too, IZP's are a high-end FW fish, whereas Clowns are a STAPLE. It just so happens that a STAPLE SW fish may sell for around the same as a HIGH END FW fish. I'd say there are more people buying SW Staples than FW Premiums. Do you want to "churn 'em out" or get simply a TON of profit per fish...?

If I had to chose between Discus and Clownfish, I'd hands down go with clownfish. Clownfish are a "beginners" fish when it comes to saltwater hobbyists, and just happen to be one of the easiest to breed in SW. Conversely, even locally bred Discus are still a "high-end" and "difficult" fish for freshwater hobbyists. If Zebra Danios and Guppies got $30-40 per fish, I'd say breed those!

With that being said, a lot of folks are attempting to breed clownfish. Joe Lichtenbert (RPI) wrote a great article in an issue of Coral Magazine (look it up and get a backissue). I got to see his operation less than 2 weeks ago, and as a compareable business model, he generated the same revenue as the Cichlid Hatchery I used to run, yet used 1/3 of the space. He has something on the neighborhood of 50 or more clownfish pairs for broodstock, he pumps out something like 7000 to 15000 clownfish per month. It is a full-time gig for Joe now. Doubling his capacity may or may not double his revenue, but most likely it wouldn't double his TIME involved. But in comparing 2 similar businesses, one FW "QUALITY, 200 species+" African Cichlid and one SW Clownfish, hands down per sq. foot Joe's operation produced 3X the REVENUE...that's gross sales, has nothing to do with profit. I can't speak to margins.

BUT, keep in mind 2 things. Probably 90% of what he raises and sells is just about the #1 saltwater fish, the Ocellaris Clownfish. Also keep in mind that he is in a LARGE market, selling to a couple larger retailers and to 2 area wholesalers. If you were breeding clownfish in the Chicago market, you'd be "screwed"...there isn't really enough business to go around for 2 players both flooding the market with Ocellaris. You'd either get in a price war, have to hit the lesser clientelle, or ship your fish out...none of which are good options.

So, in the end, my ultimate advice is to simply BREED WHAT INTERESTS YOU. You'll probably get more enjoyment out of it than if you only breed for money.

FWIW though, IF the money was a paramount concern, and IF I could locate good broodstock of the Imperial Zebra Pleco and actually AFFORD it, I probably WOULD tear down 2 of my 6 tanks and give those a go....they are beyond interesting fish, and tiny Zebras are akin to baby Nemos on the cuteness level And take everything I said about "revenue per sq foot" and you can probably get DOUBLE what Joe gets on Nemos IF you alotted that space to IZPs.

FWIW,

Matt