Seio Controller, why so expensive???? RANT beware:)

[Green Thumb]

Man I just have to rant about the seio controller. How is it that a company that was able to produce a decent PH at a decent price wasnt able to do the same with their simple, realy basic, no frills, quite non versatile controller????

I compare the controller that tunze offers for their pumps and I feel that seio is undoubtedly gouging a little with this controller.

The fact that their pumps are noisier than tunze, run hotter, and draw more amperage has me wanting to switch to tunze, I know itll be realy expensive but probably worth it in the end.

Kind of anoyed that this controller by seio isnt going for the price that its worth. Does somebody share the same oppinion?

 

[dvanacker]

go with tunze then.......power of choice and competition.

I will say that it seems the seio controller was quite difficult to engineer/produce because the seio pumps run of AC which is much more difficult to vary (ie speed) then DC (which the tunze are).

 

[Beenalongtime79]

like dvanacker says, the AC makes it a whole different level of difficulty to control than a DC pump.

That's why the AC pump can only jump from 100% to 50% with no steady gradient in between. It just hops between the two speeds.

Although if you want quiet with low wattage. Hydor Koralias can be run off the seio controllers. I also imagine the Tunze nanostreams can also be run off of the controller.

Cheers,
John H.

 

[Green Thumb]

I dont have the controller yet, but I was just looking into one. Also from what I hear you can only run 2 pumps for each seio controller, not impressed.

Rufio, how many GPH can you get out of a koralia pump, whats the wattage?

dvanacker, surely it wasnt possible to make a very versatile controller because of the fact that they run on AC. I just cant see why though it would cost MORE money to fabricate this CHINESE made mediocre controllers? Cant realy see the justification.

Hopefully you have a link to more info that might justify the seio controllers costs versus the ever so controlable tunze controller?

FIRST: I dont think the parts for AC are more expensive than DC, or are they??

SECOND: Ok granted, its more complicated to do these sorts of applications with AC, I wouldnt know, one thing I know for sure though is there are only 2 functions on the seio controllers which surely werent that EXPENSIVE/DIFFICULT to make. If the seio controller was just as versatile as the Tunze controller then perhaps its price would be justifyable because AC is more complicated, but its not, its realy simple and I doubt it was expensive to make. I just cant see it.
Please somebody enlighten me on this one.

When it comes down to it, were talking about an electronic device that opperates 1 or 2 sincronized AC pumps, can slow them down to 50% and can speed them up back to 100% flow. SUPER SIMPLE!! and did I mention its made in China not Germany.

Again sorry for ranting a bit.

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Coming from an engineer friend of mine. It is very expensive to do the same thing in AC as you can in DC. That is why you only have two settings on the Seio controller (50% and 100% with no steps in between). With that being said, I don't have any specific literature on that, but you think if it could have been done at a decent price point, that TAAM would have done it instead of releasing such a poor controller.

Also, the Seio Controller can actually run more than 2 pumps. As long as you run an extension outlet to each outlet on the controller, you should be able to run a lot of pumps (at least four different pumps based on reports from some users out there). Also, some users are using a combination of Seios, Koralias, and maximod pumps on these things.

The Hydor Koralias go up to 1200 gph on the largest models and will run you 12 W (actual draw on a kill-a-watt meter). The smallest one will give you 400gph at about 6 W I believe. The largest koralias can be modded up to about 2000 gph I think with a maxijet 900/1200 impeller magnet and a prop of your choosing. They are also DC pumps.

Look for the resun waver thread on here to find a DC pump with a minimal function controller.

Cheers,
John H.

 

[Lutefisk]

To control the speed of the type of AC motors used in our pumps the AC frequency must be altered. This is a whole different story than the DC motors used by Tunze Streams and I believe the Hydor Koralias.

Here in the US we have 60 Hz AC. To slow an AC pump down to 50% you need to change that 60 Hz to 30 Hz - the pump rotation is directly linked to the AC frequency.

I don't personally have any specific information on how they are doing it on the Seio but its a pretty sure bet that they are going from AC 60 Hz to DC and then back to AC at a frequency that they control.

This is not cheap. I don't know of any other home application of this technology. I worked with the programming using an industrial version to control a 100 HP 3-phase pump (I wish I remembered how many gallons-per-minute it would pump) and you don't want to know how much that costs

I've occasionally seen small industrial AC motor controllers at Skycrafter and they aren't cheap even on the surplus market.

If it was cheap and easy to do far more manufactures than Rio/Seio would be making them.


Paul

 

[Green Thumb]

It would be nice to get something a little more concrete as to why this thing is more expensive. I dont doub your engineer friend, all Im saying is, REALY FOLKS how much more expensive is it?? I mean you can get a blender for under 20 dollars, and they come with a built in controler

Thanks for all the info about the controllers and the varrious pumps you can put on them. I had started a thread once asking if anybody was running more than 2 pumps with the seio controller but I had No responces from people who were trying it out, could you give me a link where I might be able to read more about such experimenting? I guess I could look for the thread but it might be a bit of a long shot. Thanks

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Green Thumb,

Don't forget that the seio controller is not the blender as not every household in the US will own one of these things. Niche markets will always have products that demand higher prices since they can't reach profitability by selling to millions of homes, they are only selling to thousands. That's why specialty pumps will always be more expensive than pumps that everyone uses. Simple supply and demand there. If you can sell a million items, then you can charge less for each item than if you were only able to sell 10,000 for each product to reach a sufficient amount of profitability.

So, anyways... contact sherm71tank about his luck with using the koralias on the seio controller. I've just seen remarks posted every now and then... especially on the hydor threads of someone that has used them on hydors or maxijets. Trust me, they work on the seio controllers. There is no magic computer processor in the controller that senses whether you are using seios or not.

Cheers,
John H.

 

[dvanacker]

Man this is kinda annoying.....3 different people tell you that the price of the seio controller might reflect the fact that it is hard to step an AC motor up and down....

I don't know what your waiting for...I doubt taam is gonna come on here and explain there pricing and reasoning and engineering of the product.

Not trying to offend...but if you don't like the price quite asking why and buy something else....pretty simple

I mean if people did this with every piece of equipment that they thought was overpriced (which could be most of reef equipment) think about how many similar threads there would be that go no where.

 

[Lutefisk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9208861#post9208861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Green Thumb
...
REALY FOLKS how much more expensive is it?? I mean you can get a blender for under 20 dollars, and they come with a built in controler

...

Blenders with varaiable speeds, AC electric drills with variable speed control on the trigger, etc. all use motors with brushes that conduct electricity to portion of the motor that spins from the portion that is stationary. Obviously, this is not possible with a submersible pump.

Submersible pumps rely upon the magnetic fields generated by the alternating current to propel the powerhead/pump impeller by interacting with its attached magnet. The only way to speed it up or slow it down is to alter the AC frequency.

If you want really cheap speed control you can put your coral in your $20 blender :eek2:

(Just kidding! )

 

[Green Thumb]

I hear ya, thats why theres a "RANT beware" sign at the door, you didnt have to enter

and for arguments sake, which is all im trying to do with this thread, what if this thread did come around to having accumulated enough people who think their pricing is a little ridiculous they might bring them down? Who knows.

Hopefully theyll do something about this.




"Trust me, they work on the seio controllers. There is no magic computer processor in the controller that senses whether you are using seios or not."

Rufio thanks, I wasnt under that impresion at all



"Man this is kinda annoying.....3 different people tell you that the price of the seio controller might reflect the fact that it is hard to step an AC motor up and down...."


Im with you on that. I know nothing about electronics but to me thats sounding a bit bogus, I mean the theory about niche market that Rufio was stating is WAY more where its at. But I just cant see it being THAT pricy.

 

[ReefSalt]

Hi Green Thumb,
I cant answer the mfg cost on the controller and Seio`s are not a product as flexible as Tunzie,but if you add the price of 4 pumps and 1 SEIO controller it is still a "very good" price when considering the options.

I personally have not added my 4 units on 1 controller. I have them on 2 seperate controllers but still it cost almost half the price of the other options so when we add all that together its a great price .When push come to shove I`m displacing lots of water nevertheless.
But it will always remain that I HATE ANY KIND OF POWERHEAD IN MY TANK,just cant get used to looking at any brand inside tanks.I miss my closed loop.

 

[The Grim Reefer]

Anyone here old enough to remember when Microwave ovens or digital watches first came out? They were both hundreds of dollars. Reason for that was to recoup the R&D investment that went into them. I know they spend better than 2 years on the Seio controller, that aint cheap.

 

[ReefSalt]

Yup the Genius by Panasonic? wasnt that the first MW,
my mom had it when it came out and it was a fortune(funny to watch all her freinds in awe) lol. Good point Grim the R&D was very long I remember seeing the first prototype units at a show and man it was a long time before they hit the market. They did mention to me that it was really expensive to make, but I`m not a electronic`s specialist so I wouldnt know how expensive.

 

[Green Thumb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9211152#post9211152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefSalt
Hi Green Thumb,
I cant answer the mfg cost on the controller and Seio`s are not a product as flexible as Tunzie,but if you add the price of 4 pumps and 1 SEIO controller it is still a "very good" price when considering the options.

I personally have not added my 4 units on 1 controller. I have them on 2 seperate controllers but still it cost almost half the price of the other options so when we add all that together its a great price .When push come to shove I`m displacing lots of water nevertheless.
But it will always remain that I HATE ANY KIND OF POWERHEAD IN MY TANK,just cant get used to looking at any brand inside tanks.I miss my closed loop.

Unargueably these units are practicaly half the price. When you look at the bigger picture its not that bad. I dont know much about electronics but 2 years to develop something surely adds up. Surprising they couldnt come up with something better in 2 years time?? Im just ranting here, playing the devils advocate.
Untill I hear it from an electronics specialist I will probably continue to have doubts that seio is pushing their price up on the simple fact that they are still just above the half price mark with tunze, they might be able to make these units cheaper but why would they. Its all about profit I guess.

YOu talk about hating to look at powerheads, I dont mind the look of them so much as the LOUDNESS. In my tank I have an 1100, a 1500 and a 2600. I tell you these 3 pumps together get me great flow but they are SO loud. Alot of vibration coming from these pumps, my fishs ears are probably hating it. Not to mention heat. Are you getting the same with yours?

In the end a closed loop is probably not as efficient on larger tanks right?

 

[Beenalongtime79]

Green thumb...

The hydor koralias are absolutely silent right after the initial start up. Very impressive pumps. You might consider selling your seios and getting a few of the Hydors.

They come with magnet mounts as well and are more maneuverable than the seios.

 

[ReefSalt]

Hi GT,

Well the noise I really dont hear with my 2600`s but it could be more due to the overflows drowning it out,and the kids running around lol.

I agree the closed loop was not a option due to efficentcy when calculating costs in elec I would need one really large one or two smaller units ect.

 

[Green Thumb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9212322#post9212322 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rufio173
Green thumb...

The hydor koralias are absolutely silent right after the initial start up. Very impressive pumps. You might consider selling your seios and getting a few of the Hydors.

They come with magnet mounts as well and are more maneuverable than the seios.

Rufio, thanks for the tip. Just out of curiosity have you actualy compared them to seios for noise? Its funny because the pumps get progresively louder as they get bigger, the 2600 is just plain loud and vibrates ALOT.

Im reading good things about these koralia pumps. Dont know how simple it is to make the mod that tweaks them up to 2000gph but if they are silent Im interested.

 

[Green Thumb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9212480#post9212480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefSalt
Hi GT,

Well the noise I really dont hear with my 2600`s but it could be more due to the overflows drowning it out,and the kids running around lol.

I agree the closed loop was not a option due to efficentcy when calculating costs in elec I would need one really large one or two smaller units ect.

I hear you about background noise LOL. In this case, the tank is in my office, with the fans on my computer the pumps, my skimmer, I get a prety big HUMMMMM constantly ringing in the background, its getting to me.

I plan to get a 130 gallon in wall tank, perhaps that will help with noise reduction?

 

[ReefSalt]

I dont think it would reduce the noise,but I use the suction cup holders and I added additional support to the brackets by using plastic straps.

I drilled 2 small holes on the molding lip and passed the straps through this way it does not slip and the suction cups must reduce the vibrations cause I just went to listen and all I here is the hum of the controller ramping up and down.

By the way is this Pat? same avatar as a friend of mine on another forum?