Skimmerless curing live rock

[carb850]

I plan on doing a 10G nano that will be a skimmerless. I'm wondering what would be the best way to deal with the curing the live rock. A skimmer is highly recommended but can this process be handled with water changes alone?

Also, should I have the sandbed in place when I add the uncured rock or would it be better to wait a week or 2?

 

[firefish2020]

Yep talk to Amy about cooking rock that would prob yield the best results in this case.

 

[carb850]

I did a little research, it sounds like cooking is designed to kill off a lot of life. Isn't the idea of curing to keep as much life as possible?

I found a link from Fosters & Smith that details as way of curing which does not involve a skimmer. Any thoughts on this method?
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=31

 

[coralreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10371389#post10371389 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
I did a little research, it sounds like cooking is designed to kill off a lot of life. Isn't the idea of curing to keep as much life as possible?

SIGH more internet mis-information. "Cooking" rock absolutely is not designed to kill of life.

I found a link from Fosters & Smith that details as way of curing which does not involve a skimmer. Any thoughts on this method?

First off a skimmer is not needed or required to cure live rock.
Second read my signature :lol:

How I'd tell you to "cook" your rock vs the good docs "curing".
Put your rock in a trash can or rubbermaid container.
Cover with fresh saltwater.
Don't see the need to heat the water to sped die off since I thought we wanted as much life as possible. If you want to heat the water it's fine though.
Create water movement. Use a decent power head or two an airstone won't cut it.
Keep unlit or dimly lit. Rock is usually cooked in a covered unlit container to speed up the process but it is perfectly acceptable not to do do. I've personally done it both ways. Didn't loose any life with it covered either

Hmmm so far we seem to agree :eek2:

As your rock cooks/cures/cleans up you notice it shedding detritus...will look like sand. Every few days when you start noticing a build up of detritus do a 100% water change after "dunking and swishing" your rock rather violently in the old water. Actually it's easiest to have two containers to do this if possible. As the rock cleans itself up the shedding will decrease and you can go longer between water changes.
Feel free to scrub, dunk and swish every couple days between changes too.
When your rock is "cured" and detritus production slows then your rock is "cooked".

You can also cure/cook in in the tank. Put the rock in with no sand a couple power heads etc. Let it cycle and siphon the detritus out frequently. Water changes as needed/desired. Add your sand after detritus production slows.

What your link describes is how live rock was cured before the DSB fad took over.

 

[carb850]

I must be dense, what is the difference in the method shown in the link I posted and the 'cooking' method you posted?

 

[coralreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10372373#post10372373 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
I must be dense, what is the difference in the method shown in the link I posted and the 'cooking' method you posted?

Not one darn thing except the endpoint. Soooo how is cooking designed to kill off a lot of life :lol:

Seriously most people don't cure their rock that way anymore, most cure in the tank with a sand bed, but IMO that is the correct way. There truly isn't much difference in that curing method vs. cooking except as I said the endpoint. If you're seeing 0 ammonia after 2 weeks but the rock is still shedding keep in in the containers, with regular water changes, until it slows down.

Now that I have time let me explain the reason behind cooking new rock a little more.
As your rock is curing it is producing die off. This is being processed by bacteria in the rock and ultimately through bacteria tugor shed as detritus. This detritus is loaded with nutrients and phosphates. PHOSPHATES= algae fuel big time.
If you cure rock in a tank with sand all those nutrients and phos. are going to end up in the sand. Which is fine the sand will process it, for awhile, and people do it this way all the time. Unfortunately many of those same people are crying about uncontrollable hair algae 6-12 months later. if you'll cure/cook the rock without sand you'll hopefully avoid early problems with excessive nutrients and phos.
Same with the method you posted. Actually you'll likely have no problems justing waiting out the cycle and putting the rock in the tank but true cooking would include making sure the rock had cleaned itself up.

 

[igotsalt]

I am in the process of curing 220lbs of rock. I started with 90lbs. that had a lot of die off on it. I set up a 75g prior to picking up my rock. Salinity & temp was where I wanted it. As soon as I got it home I rinsed each piece, swishing in a prepared salted bucket and scrubbed (use a scrub brush!)anything dead or slimy off of it. Each piece was put in the 75g. I always wear rubber gloves when I get new rock. I have cured rock several times and this is how I like to do it. It cuts down on the initial deitrus in the beginning. I have 2 millenium filters running with no carbon just the thick filter pad to catch debris. I rinse them out daily. I have a magnum running with carbon and rinse filter on it every 2 days until water clears. The magnum helps filter and the carbon helps clear water and smell. Also have 3 power heads and a large strip 16" airstone. A little bit of over-kill! The water cleared quickly and smell was gone in 4 days. I threw everything I had laying around on the 75 to speed up the process. I siphoned the bottom daily and added fresh saltwater to top off. I never drained the entire tank. I wore rubber gloves and took each rock out and scrubbed it again once water cleared. I did not use a skimmer since I did not have one laying around. I sprinkled boi-zyme powder to water every day. Some feel it doesn't work, but I have had good results using it. I think it speeds the good bacteria process.

I added another 120lbs to the 90lbs last thursday(7 days in) and the water was been crystal clear for the last 3 days, no smell, and very little detiritus on bottom of tank. It will be ready to use when I want it.

I don't think you can screw it up! It is a matter of how much time you are willing to put into curing to save the critters. The more you clean and change water equals less ammonia, nitrates, nitrites etc. which will give a better survival rate to critters. I liked a statement a guy said "The solution to pollution is dilution." I don't remember where I read it but it made since and stuck with me! Hope this helps you out a little!

 

[coralreefer]

What exactly is curing and cooking live rock? What is the point.

The point is that all live rocks comes loaded in phosphate, it's just the nature of the beast. You can either use a DSB, and as the rock sheds store it there, or clean the rock before you use it. Curing is the first step, letting things die off and the bacterial levels get established in the rock. Where the rock is no longer producing ammonia, etc but performing the ammonia reduction cycle.

Cooking, is taking it to the next level and using those bacteria to migrate phosphates out of the rock. The object is to not introduce phosphates (like you would do with using cured rock, feeding fish, introducing things into the system that would die and release phosphate) and keep the water column low in phosphate. That forces the bacteria to use it's only source of phosphate, the phosphate in the rock. Bacteria will migrate that phosphate out. You will see it as bacterial detritus in the bottom of the tub.

The fastest way is to flush the rock out by dunking, swishing, draining as much detritus out as you can each time, and starting over with clean water each time.
Yes, you need a lot of circulation. Treat it just like it's alive, it is.
No, a skimmer will not cut it.

Done properly, you will not lose the life on the rocks at all. You will just lose the phosphate

This is on another board and is a quote from the person that introduced "cooking" on the forums.
Wish I'd gone through my bookmarks earlier he explains it a lot better than I do. I'll put a link to the whole thread on the cvrc board.


btw this is why it's called cooking :lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5690100#post5690100 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bomber
Because it's a old old way of doing it, probably older than you are.

Originally, back when people could collect their own rock, they would put the rock in tubs of salt water.
Then to speed up the process and get them cleaner, faster - you take one rock out and let it dry.

When you put that 'dead' rock back in the tub, you would get a massive cycle that would clean the rocks up in a hurry.

That cycle would make a lot of dark brown foam and sludge on the surface of the water and bubble some.

It looked just like "cooking" sour mash to make moon shine...

....and that's how it got the name.

 

[firefish2020]

Amy, what about using a hydroponic reactor to help in the curing process (just thinking out loud here). Theoretically a biological organism like a plant should be able to transfer the PO4 and nitrates into fuel for the plant? Well actually it would transfer it to create O2 right? Either way it would be much faster than a skimmer and should speed up curing/cooking by folds, at least in theory. The only draw back would be finding a terrestrial plant that thrives in saltwater. Mangroves would work but they are trees.

 

[rnhrtfan]

great thread guys. I have 100lbs. of premium fiji that was in another tank and has been sitting around drying out for about three months now and I am about to start this process. seems like everyone has their own way of doing it (sort of) all with good results. I tend to like Amy's cooking method as it requires less equipment however igotsalt's method appears to require less labor.

 

[coralreefer]

I've been thinking about this Ron and I dunno. This is my opinion only based on what I've learned here and there.

Theoretically a biological organism like a plant should be able to transfer the PO4 and nitrates into fuel for the plant?

Sure that's why/how they fuel unwanted algae growth ie. hair algae. That's also why 'fuges help with nutrient export. The problem as I remember with relying on plant life for export is they tend to leak these compounds back into the water column.
Bacteria are very efficient consumers of PO4. It's what they do to survive. They'll do their best to grab any available nutrient that isn't taken up by algae first. The underlying principals behind curing/cooking are bacteria driven.

Curing is the first step, letting things die off and the bacterial levels get established in the rock. Where the rock is no longer producing ammonia, etc but performing the ammonia reduction cycle it's cured.

Same with cooking you're encouraging bacterial rather than algae driven absorption of PO4.
A couple reasons behind dunking/swishing and water changes are
1. To remove the detritus before it can break down and release PO4 back in to the water column.
2. To force the bacteria to use more and more of the food (PO4) in the rock - thus cleaning the rocks better and better.

That's the best I can remember off the top of my head. I really need to find some old threads and read up on this stuff again.

Slightly OT but I think studies on the roles that bacteria play in our tanks may be very beneficial when it comes to reefkeeping.
You up on carbon dosing at all

Either way it would be much faster than a skimmer and should speed up curing/cooking by folds, at least in theory.

As I've been typing this I'm starting to wonder if a couple cc of vodka would speed it up better, at least in theory

 

[carb850]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10372008#post10372008 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralreefer
SIGH more internet mis-information. "Cooking" rock absolutely is not designed to kill of life.

Hijacking my own thread, I want to point out my comment was based upon 5 minutes of research. No were near enough for me to take it as gospel, which is why I asked the question here. Also, whatever I read did not specifically say it was used to kill, I assumed that because they were using it to get ride of some nuisance algae. I seem to remember someone also suggested cooking to get ride of other undesirable buildup such as detritus. That is why it sounded like a way to kill off life, at least the top level.

 

[carb850]

Ordered rock today. 18 lbs of uncured Uaniva which will be shipped within the next 2 weeks.

Once I read, re-read, and re-reread this thread I will come back with more questions.

 

[firefish2020]

That's great rock I ordered some in for a customer not long ago and he really liked it, it's also what I have in my new display tank at the shop. I think you will like the shape.

 

[carb850]

Rock arrived today. It looks better than I hoped for. The photo was taken immediately after unpacking. The colors are fantastic and it is so very pourous. It even has different 'things' growing on it. I have no idea what they are and my camera is not good enough to pick up detail that close. So for now, I'm going to leave them and see what happens.

 

[firefish2020]

Hmmm that's not what the Uaniva I ordered looked like at all? I think they just make up names sometimes LOL. You will like it even more when it colors up. I think I'll get several different types for my next tank just to see what they send each time LOL.

 

[carb850]

The stuff is remarkably porous. I do not remember which piece, but one has 3 or so holes completely through the middle about the size of my finger. Mini caves if you will. The other pieces had a lot of crevasses of varying size. I'm could not be more happy with what I received.

I might get better pics of the individual pieces in the next few days.

 

[carb850]

I have educated myself a little more on the cooking method. I do still have a few question.

1) From what I can tell, the only difference in procedure for cooking vs curing is the addition of light. Is that correct?

2) With curing, you are supposed to 'swoosh' the rock around to clean off periodically. Is it wrong to do this same thing to curing rock?


Cooking rock does kill, just not everything.

3) What will die off? Hitchhiker corals? Anything else?

4) What will survive? Bacteria? cocapods? Coraline algae?

 

[coralreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10478323#post10478323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020
I think they just make up names sometimes LOL.

*snicker* *snort* *snicker*
Ya think