Stacked Sump/Refugium Plans

[Drez]

First off, Hello RC!

I'm a nano reefer and while I browse these forums now and then I spend the majority of my time in nano forums simply because it's more applicable to me. I am now, however, venturing into building a sump, an area in which you folks have much more experience.

This plan is not my first, its already gone through some changes and modifications. It is rather complicated for a first try but I think it has potential. I'm not interested in changing my stand or tank set up at this time, so it more of a build to suit deal this time. That being said, you'll notice the space I'm working in is less than ideal. Thats life, I'm determined to make it work. Without further adue, here is my plan. Let me hear what you think, and thanks a bunch for looking!


PLANS:

I’m building a rather unorthodox sump due to size constrains. Essentially the result is an abnormally tall sump. It’s also small in general as it is for a nano tank (25 gallon 30x12x16). I realize you’re probably busy, but if you would have a moment to critique this plan it would be of tremendous help to me. Experience in sump building is one resource I do not have. I’ve attached some pictures, as I’m sure they will describe the concepts much better than can be explained.

Plan:
Stacked Refugium and Sump

Dimensions:

Height: 18”
Length: 13”
Width: 9”

These allow the sump to fit under my stand with some maneuverability, give at least 2” for foam under the sump to reduce stress on the seals and provide enough space out of the back to accommodate my HOB Aqua C Remora Skimmer.

Total Theoretical Volume: 9 Gal
Total Theoretical Running Volume: 7 Gal
Total Theoretical Reserve: 2 Gal
Theoretical Refugium Volume: 4.7gal

Synopsis:
Water flows into A from an external overflow (at some point after sump is running will look into drilling a tank). A is filled with some rock rubble. Skimmer takes water from A and allows it to flow into B. Partition separating A and B is lowered by an inch in the event that flow thru the sump is greater then flow through the skimmer*. Water from B flows into the Refugium, C. This area is filled with a live sand bed, macro algae and some live rock. It is lit by 2x 15 watt Compact Florescent bulbs (6000K). There is a pipe at water level in the refugium at D that allows water to flow into water reservoir E. External pump at F takes water back to tank.

* may remove this partition entirely as it does not play a big role. Does help from re-skimming same water and possibly bubble reduction but might not have a big impact on either.


Advantages:
-dark areas for beneficial biological filtration
-refugium makes maximal use of space and light
-allows for easy use of external pump in space provided

Disadvantages
-may be more difficult to build
-slightly top heavy (tippy) but shouldn’t matter in space
-stacked portion difficult to clean (note: should grow little to no algae given that it is blocked from the light source)

Other notes:
-Proposed external pump at this time is a Quiet One 1200 (300gph) should match overflow well.
-Siphon will have a ball valve somewhere to adjust water flow into the sump.

THANKS FOR LOOKING!


CONCEPT

TOP

SIDE

TOP showing FLOW & Skimmer

SIDE showing FLOW

 

[30mini]

I don't like this. It seems as though you would get evaporation from the tank and not from the return like you should. Am I missing something else here, or does everyone else see that too?

 

[ITGUY]

Please I'm no engineer....
It appears that if for any reason your return to the sump flow is slowed down for any reason your pump returning water to the tank will starve?

 

[Drez]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10319855#post10319855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 30mini
I don't like this. It seems as though you would get evaporation from the tank and not from the return like you should. Am I missing something else here, or does everyone else see that too?

Unless I'm missing something it shouldn't. Evaporation should come out of the reservoir and providing thats full, the refugium. That is unless I'm missing something myself.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10322130#post10322130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ITGUY
Please I'm no engineer....
It appears that if for any reason your return to the sump flow is slowed down for any reason your pump returning water to the tank will starve?

That might be true. If the reservoir drops below a couple inches for any reason it will starve the return pump. Would that not be the case in any sump though? That any time the water out > water in the pump runs dry? I thought thats why you always make the water drain into the sump bigger then water out...give the drain the max it can till its to a point where it wont drain, it fills sump, water returns to a level high enough in display to drain again. Obviously reality is more "fluid" then my stepwise explanation, pardon the pun.

By all means correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like I have a good conceptual grasp of all this but experience wins out.

 

[DMBillies]

This is an interesting idea... here are a couple of my thoughts.

-----The drain you have to the refugium (with water coming in over the top) will keep the water level in the first two (top) compartments at a steady level (your "max level" line). This means that any evaporation occurring anywhere in the system will be experienced in the refugium area underneath of the other two compartments (your reserve area). This isn't necessarily a problem, but it does have a couple of implications: (1) there will be an air bubble underneath of the other two compartments, so you have to design the top of the refugium to hold the weight of that water...this may not be that easy, (2) you'll have a tough time getting any kind of auto topoff switch under there if you have plans for that, (3) you need to build the intake for the pump so that it pulls from the bottom of the refugium compartment so that you'll have some leeway for topping off the tank before the pump runs dry (if the intake is too close to the top, you'll get that lovely whirlpool effect).

-----If you're going to run a sump and you've never done so, I think you'll be amazed by how much it increases your evaporation (i.e., you're significantly increasing the amount of surface area from which your water can evaporate...maybe almost doubling it...so expect your evap to almost double). In other words, the above comments by myself and others regarding evap are worth thinking about.

-----Water spilling down the drain hose to the bottom of the tank could create a lot of microbubbles, which could conceivably make it back to the pump unless you build some type of bubble trap. Then, your beautiful display will look nasty and you'll loathe all of the hard work you put into making the thing in the first place.

-----The cleaning problem could be a big one since the water will significantly slow in that bottom area and "drop" any detritus it is carrying (i.e., you would be creating a giant dead spot that you couldn't clean).

-----If you solve the problem of cleaning the bottom compartment and want to go ahead with this, I'd recommend lowering the drain tube (feeding the area underneath) so that water can freely flow into it, but sand and other things won't get sucked down to the bottom. Then the baffle you currently have planned to allow water into compartment B will keep the water level for your skimmer constant. Lowering the drain will just make compartment C the compartment in which you experience the evaporation. The advantages being that the compartment is bigger (less likely to run pump dry) and easily accessible for an auto topoff if you ever go that route (you never know what the future will bring). You also avoid the possible microbubble issue.

Hope that helps and good luck with the planning.

 

[oharaell]

Brian makes great points...

Also

Instead of using a drain to get the water into your return section (the bottom), why don't you just make the 'fuge a little less wide?

Build a baffle that the water will spill over down into the bottom section.

That'll also give you room to install a ATO system if you decided to.

Oh, also, I'd make the floor of the fuge at a slight angle, running up away from the return pump, that way no bubles would get trapped down there.

Check out Melev's site, I think he built a sump similar to what I'm recommending.

 

[matthewdmueller]

Take a look at my build thread. I have a nano that I built a sump for and it stacks. I think that it is a little more simplified and it might help to get you pointed in a better direction. So far mine has been working well for me, and it comes apart, it servicable and expandable. PM me if you have any questions or if you need any help. Hope this helps a little.

 

[Drez]

Thanks for everyone help so far.

O.k. I guess I figured since it was the last stage it wouldn't get dirty, but if my skimmer does so will it. ATO would be tricky too in that. Even refiling evap would go into the refugium which isn't ideal.

Perhaps being my first build I should go a little less ambitious? I drew up a new sketch closer to the smallest sump that Melev has on his site. I don't have any baffles because my skimmer really produces so few bubbles and unless the trickling water produces much I think I might be ok. That being said it wouldn't take too much too add a couple. An inch out of the return reservoir and an inch out of the refugium and I have 3 baffles. I'm just worried about the refugium getting too tiny and thus ineffective not to mention a whirlpool in the return area. Already as drawn the refugium is only 9"x 6". At any rate, let me know if this is a better route. Less innovative I'm sure but if it ain't broke, don't fix it right?

As drawn there is about 2 gal reserve for power outs.

P.s. Matt, I like google sketch up, once I figure out how to use it more effectively it'll spare everyone the pictures of my hand drawn sketches

 

[matthewdmueller]

Is this going inside of a stand? Will you have access to service the skimmer with it on the back? I like your design, I would have done something similar if I wasn't in a stand. It is very simple, and it should be very effective.

 

[Drez]

It is going into a stand, however, the back of the stand is open so by reaching from the side I can easily access the collection cup and remove the skimmer when it needs cleaning without having to take out the sump.

 

[Drez]

Bump with a googlesketchup

 

[matthewdmueller]

Very nice