stray voltage, how much is too much?

In that case you're measuring the difference in voltage potential between the water and gfci. You will get a reading there, as the gfci is hooked up to other electrical devices. That voltage difference will not necessarily mean there's a current in the water as there should be insulation on all those devices. That is a separate circuit. Once again, however, voltage is never dangerous, unless there is current, which can be deadly in even relatively small amounts.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15286297#post15286297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MeReefBeef
In that case you're measuring the difference in voltage potential between the water and gfci. You will get a reading there, as the gfci is hooked up to other electrical devices. That voltage difference will not necessarily mean there's a current in the water as there should be insulation on all those devices. That is a separate circuit. Once again, however, voltage is never dangerous, unless there is current, which can be deadly in even relatively small amounts.

MeReefBeef,

You say voltage is never dangerous, yet voltage and current and voltage are closely linked to each other. While it is true, the danger lies with the current transmitted when a circuit is grounded. I challenge you to shock someone without the help of a voltage source.

One example that comes to my mind is a case where I measred the voltage, or potential difference between (if you would like to be technical), between my tank water and ground (which happend to by my reflector hood). At one point I was actually measuring something like 70 V. Often, I could move rocks around with no issues, in fact I had no idea there was this much voltage in the tank until one day I was moving rocks around and as my arm was half way in the tank my elbow was touch the reflector.

ZAPP!!!!

Which I think is your point. The fact that voltage is in the tank is technically not the "DANGER", yet I think it can be mis interpreted by some readers primarily wondering if there system is safe. Thus, motivation for my first simple post.




jdieck,

While I think your statements about the problems with using a grounding probe are compelling, and I agree that a grounding should be used in conjunction with GFCI circuits, I would like to offer a clarification / comment, about your comment

QUOTE]Without a GFCI IMO having a ground probe may have more risk involved than not having any.
a) If you touch an electrified fixture (pump casing, metalic hood or reflector) while working in the water, because of the water will be perfectly grounded then the shock will be maximum with potential fatal consequences.[/QUOTE]

This is true only for cases when electrified units are NOT submerged in water (e.g., your metallic hood or reflector examples are good). In the case of a submerged Pump, heater, etc., with a grounding probe in place, the current has no reason to travel through you to get to ground.
 
Cabrego,

I agree with what you said, but just to further clarify. You were zapped because you created a pathway between two different voltage potentials hence inducing current. However, without creating said pathway, everything would be ok. Naturally, any system operating with a huge power supply will more than likely have parts in the system with huge voltage potentials (that you can measure). This does not necessarily mean that there will be a danger, unless you create a pathway for current. Just check all your equipment everyone!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15286230#post15286230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MeReefBeef
No one has explained what the concept of stray voltage is to me yet =(

See my post here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15142593#post15142593

and quoted here:
Stray Voltage by definition is the occurrence of voltage between two objects that should not have any voltage difference between them. In this case, the two objects we speak of are the Aquarium Water and Earth Ground.

I have done some thinking about this and I believe that I have rationalized the reasons to have a ground probe;

First, I believe that we are essentially creating a ground plane or system ground with the aquarium water itself.

If you go with the assumption that all electrical devices with an AC mains are relative to an earth ground, then the ground plane in the aquarium is actually a floating ground UNLESS it is electrically connected to the Earth Ground.

With a floating ground, it is possible to have a ground potential or voltage difference with reference to Earth Ground.

Because water IS a conductor, it is subject to electromagnetic induction that is caused by the changing magnetic fields created by the pumps, heaters, lighting and other electrical devices that are in close proximity to the water. This is one place where the voltage difference between the aquarium's ground plane and the Earth Ground comes from (the other source of stray voltage is a failed device, heater, pump, etc).

In order rid ourselves of this induced voltage, we must ground the aquarium water to Earth ground, completing and connecting the circuit that we have created (the entire aquarium system is, in effect, an electrical circuit).

If you combine this with a GFCI and/or circuit breaker, then it will be possible to detect and immediately remedy a fault within this circuit by removing the mains voltage, thus greatly lowering the risk of electrocution or fire.


Some definitions, most of which below, I have copied from Wikipedia for reference:

Earth Ground - In electrical engineering, ground or earth may be the reference point in an electrical circuit from which other voltages are measured, or a common return path for electric current, or a direct physical connection to the Earth.

Ground Plane - In electrical engineering, a ground plane is an electrically conductive surface.

Floating Ground - A system ground that is not actually connected to Earth ground.

System Ground - The ground plane within a circuit that may or may not be connected to an earth ground.

Ground Potential - The difference in Voltage between the System Ground and Earth Ground.

Electromagnetic induction - The production of voltage across a conductor situated in a changing magnetic field or a conductor moving through a stationary magnetic field.
 
Based on all of the assumptions in my post, if we are in fact creating a system ground, then all equipment should also be grounded to this ground plane as well. A lighting hood or ballast that is grounded, should be grounded to the same earth ground as the tank. If it is not on the same ground plane, this could cause a voltage potential and leave you with the possibility of electric shock.

The voltage vs. current argument is used a lot, but normally misused in this argument. First, to have voltage you must have current. You cannot have one without the other. See ohm's law:

V=IR

Where:

V=Volts
I=Current
R=Resistance

If I=0, then no matter what R equals, you will have 0 Volts. In order to have a number greater than Zero Volts, you must have BOTH current and resistance equal to any value above Zero.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15286574#post15286574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cabrego

jdieck,

While I think your statements about the problems with using a grounding probe are compelling, and I agree that a grounding should be used in conjunction with GFCI circuits, I would like to offer a clarification / comment, about your comment

QUOTE]Without a GFCI IMO having a ground probe may have more risk involved than not having any.
a) If you touch an electrified fixture (pump casing, metalic hood or reflector) while working in the water, because of the water will be perfectly grounded then the shock will be maximum with potential fatal consequences.


This is true only for cases when electrified units are NOT submerged in water (e.g., your metallic hood or reflector examples are good). In the case of a submerged Pump, heater, etc., with a grounding probe in place, the current has no reason to travel through you to get to ground.
[/QUOTE]

That is right cabrego, may be I did not explain it well trying to define the two cases.
In the first case the equipment out of the water you get a good zap. In the second it is the situation I tried to describe were a short circuit can be created only protected by the breaker which will require very high current to trip and potentially creating a fire.
 
If the hood is grounded and the water is grounded to the same earth ground, there is no chance of shock! Almost every time someone gets shocked by touching the water and hood at the same time, either the water is not grounded, or the hood is not properly grounded.

Ground your water!

Ground those hoods!
 
Thanks for the flood of info;

As to my original question (why not to use a grounding probe with a GFI) in layman's terms there is a risk of causing the circiut breaker (or fuse) not to function properly thereby potentially increasing the risk of electrical fire.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15290516#post15290516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shablin
Thanks for the flood of info;

As to my original question (why not to use a grounding probe with a GFI) in layman's terms there is a risk of causing the circiut breaker (or fuse) not to function properly thereby potentially increasing the risk of electrical fire.
The right question is why to use a GFCI with a ground probe :D
Also in addition to the grounding probe it is a best practice as gabbaga mentions to also ground all devices with a metalic shell, hood, carcass etc that can be subject to a short circuit.
 
Thanks again;

BTW, my RO water is less than 10 on my TDS meter; I only got a tingle, not anything too electrifying. I cant imagine how much current was oozing from that heater and again how valuable that grounding probe is! (I also test my GFI frequently - its about 7 yrs old)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15291021#post15291021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shablin
Thanks again;

BTW, my RO water is less than 10 on my TDS meter; I only got a tingle, not anything too electrifying. I cant imagine how much current was oozing from that heater and again how valuable that grounding probe is! (I also test my GFI frequently - its about 7 yrs old)
Are you using DI resin filters? if so it shall be zero TDS.
 
Gabba, I'm sorry but that is abuse of Ohm's law. A voltage potential can be taken from any two points, regardless of whether there's actual current between them. If you use a voltmeter to measure, say where current is going into your lights and a point in the water of your tank you would measure a voltage, and create a short to the water in your tank. You have thus created a parallel resistance (the voltmeter) which is where some current will run. There is a voltage difference between those two points, but not necessarily current running between them (w/o the voltmeter probing).

Another example would be the voltage potential between the sky and the earth. There is usually a voltage difference between the two, however, until the potential reaches high enough for it to counter the resistivity between the two (the air), we will not see current (lightning).

This is precisely why I'm bringing this up in the first place. A presence of voltage does not entail a presence of current at all, especially since all your electric devices should have insulation. If you had some kind of a wire that was not insulated, the high conductivity would quickly short out all your electronics.

What you mention about electromagnetic induction is possible, however, grounding the system won't help in that case, as your electronics are a SEPARATE system from the water in your tank. In other words, the water is being affected by the electronics from induced magnetic fields, but once again it is NOT dissipating any power hence, there should be no current in there, EVEN if you measure a voltage between the gfci and water.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15292072#post15292072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MeReefBeef
Gabba, I'm sorry but that is abuse of Ohm's law. A voltage potential can be taken from any two points, regardless of whether there's actual current between them. If you use a voltmeter to measure, say where current is going into your lights and a point in the water of your tank you would measure a voltage, and create a short to the water in your tank. You have thus created a parallel resistance (the voltmeter) which is where some current will run. There is a voltage difference between those two points, but not necessarily current running between them (w/o the voltmeter probing).

Another example would be the voltage potential between the sky and the earth. There is usually a voltage difference between the two, however, until the potential reaches high enough for it to counter the resistivity between the two (the air), we will not see current (lightning).

This is precisely why I'm bringing this up in the first place. A presence of voltage does not entail a presence of current at all, especially since all your electric devices should have insulation. If you had some kind of a wire that was not insulated, the high conductivity would quickly short out all your electronics.


I don't disagree with your presumptions. You are correct in your example using the sky and earth as having a different voltage potential. The best answer I could find as to the resistance of dry air is 4 x 10^13 ohm meters at sea level, a near infinite resistance, or rather an insulator.

Because air is an insulator and not a resistor, there is not enough voltage or current to ionize the air molecules and create any flow of electrons. With no flow of electrons, there is no current, just like your example of the hood over the tank water.

The fact is, these two planes are electrically isolated unless there is a contact point between the two. If there is never any interaction between the two points, then ANY voltage measurement is arbitrary and meaningless.

Lightning forms when the voltage potential becomes so great that the air molecules ionize to conduct the voltage to ground (earth). Then, there IS current flow! Up until that point, there are really two 0V references, or two isolated ground planes. One in the sky and one on earth. When air molecules ionize and form a path to ground, there becomes a current flow of this voltage conducting across its surface. Up until that point occurs, all voltage differences are arbitrary.

To put it another way, in an electrically conductive circuit, voltage is normally measured with reference to ground.

If there is a voltage difference between a light hood and ground and there is a voltage difference between the tank water and ground, then voltage potentials DO exist. For this voltage to exist, there MUST be some measurable current flowing TO the hood or water itself. The fact is, if your lighting hood has voltage on it, there is current flowing to that hood from some source with respect to its own ground.

You can be assured that you will have detectable current flow when these two planes become electrically connected, like when you stick your arm in the tank water and touch the hood at the same time.

What we want is to remove these voltage potentials.

When I was using ohm's law before, I was speaking of electricity within a circuit. This statement: "If I=0, then no matter what R equals, you will have 0 Volts. In order to have a number greater than Zero Volts, you must have BOTH current and resistance equal to any value above Zero." is true mathematically for a given electrically connected circuit, where voltage is measured with reference to 0V or ground within that circuit. All voltage potentials outside of that are arbitrary until they become connected to the circuit. I do not believe this is an "abuse of ohm's law", because it breaks it down to the basics, and that is what this law is there for, and everything electrically speaking is based on.

Properly grounding your devices AND the tank water completes the path to earth ground, leaving you with zero stray voltage and zero voltage potentials between all electrically connected equipment and the water (or near zero if you want to discuss chemical interactions of metals, but for our purposes, it's zero).

What you mention about electromagnetic induction is possible, however, grounding the system won't help in that case, as your electronics are a SEPARATE system from the water in your tank. In other words, the water is being affected by the electronics from induced magnetic fields, but once again it is NOT dissipating any power hence, there should be no current in there, EVEN if you measure a voltage between the gfci and water.

How will it NOT help? If there is a voltage potential from induced voltage, what happens when you stick your grounded arm in the tank, or to another device like the light hood that IS grounded while touching saltwater, or you have salt creep that completes an electrically conductive path? Like I said before, voltage measurements are arbitrary until there is a path for it to flow. Grounding everything removes these potential paths for current flow, and helps in all of these cases, because it removes the potential for voltage to exist with reference to itself.

What we are talking about here is creating a system ground that everything should live on. Earth is the ground that everything should be referenced off of. Not the sky or some arbitrary isolated 0V. That is the potential for danger in all cases!
 
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wow, can't believe this is being debated.

ground probe - $15-20
GFCI outlets you can plug into your standard ones - $25 each

preventing a possibly violent and embarrassing death for as little as $40 plus tax?

priceless.

just buy it.
 
It's a healthy debate/ discussion. I don't think that we disagree... we're just coming to terms. It certainly made me have to think a little to work around MrReefBeef's concepts... but I think I made my point clear.

Which is pretty much the same as yours:

ground probe - $15-20
GFCI outlets you can plug into your standard ones - $25 each

preventing a possibly violent and embarrassing death for as little as $40 plus tax?

priceless.

just buy it.

lol.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15291402#post15291402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Are you using DI resin filters? if so it shall be zero TDS.


I presently am resinless in my DI but have a batch ready to load; prefilter TDS is about 180 in our well water.......thats a different discussion.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15296296#post15296296 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shablin
I presently am resinless in my DI but have a batch ready to load; prefilter TDS is about 180 in our well water.......thats a different discussion.
:thumbsup:
 
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