mr. bojangsjang
New member
I know thick acrylic tanks are a must to avoid sweating on a cold water reef, but is 1" neccessary or can it be 3/4" or 5/8" or something and still not sweat?
Sweating on Cold Water Reef
- Thread starter mr. bojangsjang
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musty baby
New member
I suppose it would depend on how low you're taking the temp and how warm/humid the air is around. Or, if you want to squeegee the tank every time you look at it.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
LOL might stick with full on 1" then as it's humid in new england and the tank's temp will be in the upper 40's.
That might not even be enough to eliminate sweating. I suppose if you know the maximum dew point the room will experience, and you know the surface temperature of the 1" thick plex at that time, you could predict if the tank would sweat or not - but in reality, what most people do is set the system up and see if it sweats. I've seen air blowers used to reduce minor sweating in some tanks - just blow air across the front of the tank.
Do you really need to keep the tank in the upper 40's? Most animals I've worked with can go a bit higher (say perhaps mid-50s) and this reduces sweating quite a bit - more than you would expect for just a few degrees rise. Giant Pacific octopus and truly Arctic critters need to be kept very cold, but virtually everything else I can think of will do just fine slightly warmer than that. I never advocate "pushing" the temp limits on animals, but keeping them at the high end of normal should be no problem.
We use a frame and a sheet of glass or plex over the entire tank front - spaced about 1" from the front panel of the tank. Then, we pump dessicated air slowly into that space. This reduces the dew point, and no matter how cold we go, there is never any sweating. The problem is getting enough dessicated air - we use a regenerative dessicator - probably costs $3k now. I spent $600 this summer on a re-build kit for it (has to be done every two years or so).
One *possible* solution would be to create the same air space, but seal it, and include some dessicant crystals. This will dry out the trapped air, keeping it from fogging - that is until the seal leaks room air into the space and you have to replenish the dessicant.
Jay Hemdal
Do you really need to keep the tank in the upper 40's? Most animals I've worked with can go a bit higher (say perhaps mid-50s) and this reduces sweating quite a bit - more than you would expect for just a few degrees rise. Giant Pacific octopus and truly Arctic critters need to be kept very cold, but virtually everything else I can think of will do just fine slightly warmer than that. I never advocate "pushing" the temp limits on animals, but keeping them at the high end of normal should be no problem.
We use a frame and a sheet of glass or plex over the entire tank front - spaced about 1" from the front panel of the tank. Then, we pump dessicated air slowly into that space. This reduces the dew point, and no matter how cold we go, there is never any sweating. The problem is getting enough dessicated air - we use a regenerative dessicator - probably costs $3k now. I spent $600 this summer on a re-build kit for it (has to be done every two years or so).
One *possible* solution would be to create the same air space, but seal it, and include some dessicant crystals. This will dry out the trapped air, keeping it from fogging - that is until the seal leaks room air into the space and you have to replenish the dessicant.
Jay Hemdal
mr. bojangsjang
New member
These CW critters are from Maine so keeping them in the 40's is a must.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
So just installing a computer fan or something to blow across the top of the water might help with sweating?
Hi,
I have some experience with coldwater tanks so I'll just share it here. My tank had 8mm glass. I live in a cold, moist coastal climate. I don't have an air conditioning system:
Sweating started at 8-12 C (46-54F) depending on air humidity.
My lowest temp was 4C (39F) to simulate winter. Water was running down the glass then. But I kept the lights off then anyway.
I had very little sweating and never saw it as a big problem so I didn't try any methods to combat it. But I must admit it is an issue if you really want to keep realistic winter temperatures, not just acceptable temperatures.
Now I am building a 115 gal test tank with double glass. I am going to try blowing in air from a compressor between the glass sheets before sealing. I assume the compressor air is very dry since it releases water when comressed. There could be some issues with the air expanding, moisture leaking in etc. I will post the results here in a few weeks.
I belive many temperate animals need summer and winter. Summer is more important to most of them since that is when they feed. Winter is a resting period without food uptake for many species. So warmth is more important than cold. But that doesn't mean cold isn't important. They are adapted to the yearly cycles.
I think an air conditioning system helps a lot. I dries the air.
A dehumidifier in the room helps a lot.
A thin film of soap on the glass helps, because it makes it harder for water to condensate. I know it sounds strange but one of the most respected cold water aquarists in Norway swore to this method.
I don't think a fan helps by itself because it will only lead more air, thus moisture, to the glass.
I have some experience with coldwater tanks so I'll just share it here. My tank had 8mm glass. I live in a cold, moist coastal climate. I don't have an air conditioning system:
Sweating started at 8-12 C (46-54F) depending on air humidity.
My lowest temp was 4C (39F) to simulate winter. Water was running down the glass then. But I kept the lights off then anyway.
I had very little sweating and never saw it as a big problem so I didn't try any methods to combat it. But I must admit it is an issue if you really want to keep realistic winter temperatures, not just acceptable temperatures.
Now I am building a 115 gal test tank with double glass. I am going to try blowing in air from a compressor between the glass sheets before sealing. I assume the compressor air is very dry since it releases water when comressed. There could be some issues with the air expanding, moisture leaking in etc. I will post the results here in a few weeks.
I belive many temperate animals need summer and winter. Summer is more important to most of them since that is when they feed. Winter is a resting period without food uptake for many species. So warmth is more important than cold. But that doesn't mean cold isn't important. They are adapted to the yearly cycles.
I think an air conditioning system helps a lot. I dries the air.
A dehumidifier in the room helps a lot.
A thin film of soap on the glass helps, because it makes it harder for water to condensate. I know it sounds strange but one of the most respected cold water aquarists in Norway swore to this method.
I don't think a fan helps by itself because it will only lead more air, thus moisture, to the glass.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
Thanks, very helpful. I do have an AC so that won't be a problem during the summer, but I can't run it the other seasons as I live in Massachusetts. I will see how a dehumidifer works, I have one laying around in the basement.
The soap thing sounds interesting, might give it a try if my tank sweats.
Would applying clear safety film stop sweating???
Is cold water reefing popular in Norway? I would love to see some of the tanks.
The soap thing sounds interesting, might give it a try if my tank sweats.
Would applying clear safety film stop sweating???
Is cold water reefing popular in Norway? I would love to see some of the tanks.
Stoney Mahony
New member
Awesome stuff guys. You might also try something like rainx like you use on your car winshield. Water wouldnt really be able to condense on a vertical piece of glass with the rainx.
Also Norskfisk, They sell giant air dryers that suck everybit of moisture out of the air that might work for you. Heres a link:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8008
Your tank also sounds awesome, love to see a pic
Also Norskfisk, They sell giant air dryers that suck everybit of moisture out of the air that might work for you. Heres a link:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8008
Your tank also sounds awesome, love to see a pic
If 4-mil mean 4 millimeters then there is some insulating effect in this plastic film. If that effect is high enough to make any noticable difference I don't know. We could assume that it has the same insulating ability as acrylic so that would bean that it is the same as adding 4 more millimeters of acrylig.
No, not yet. Many people have tried keeping local species, but there has only been one well documentet case of real modern "reefkeeping". This was done by a creative biology educated woman called Monicha Landรฦรยธy back in the 90s. She had a web page with a few articles and a very nice diary. Unfortunaltely she gave up aquariums and is not very web active. Her page disappeared when she switced ISP a while a go. She didn't have a digital camera so the few pictures were poor quality.
Stoney M:
Thanks for the link, I hadn't though of using desiccant. I will look into that. Letting the air pass trough that before going into the sealed chamber sounds like a very good idea. I'll see if I can get som locally first, maybe I'll pick apart a cheap air cleaning device or something.
The 115 gal is only a test tank, to test the glass tech. I expect the testing to be done in late december or early january. If it works I'll sell it and build a bigger tank (260 gal) in spring. That tank will have thicker, double walls with insulating polyurethane foam in between. So it will take 6 months from now before my I fill it and start with algae. In the bottom there will be a 6 inch room under the glass window for live sand. Since it is a fiberlass tank I can stuff in as many heavy rocks I want to without worrying about glass breaking.
If the 115 works there will be an article in january. There will be about 100 pics and very well documented build process.
The 115 gal right now
There will be an 8mm sheet on the inside. This is the regular aquarium glass. In the frame you can se there will be an additional 4mm sheet. After both silicone beads have cured fully, the air is blown in through 2 small pre drilled air channels in the cornes. The channels are plugged with epoxy afterwards.
There will be an 8mm sheet on the inside. This is the regular aquarium glass. In the frame you can se there will be an additional 4mm sheet. After both silicone beads have cured fully, the air is blown in through 2 small pre drilled air channels in the cornes. The channels are plugged with epoxy afterwards.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
Looks Good Jon!
mr. bojangsjang
New member
Hey guys I found insulated and sweat proof tanks very cheap! Heres the link . The tanks are made of ABS plastic (scratch proof from my research) and the insulated walls are 2" thick (unsure of what material is used to make the insulation). The front pane is made of 2 panes and claims to be sweat proof in cold water. If you click on more images in the above link the second pic shows the 2 panes about 1" apart. Best part of all though is that you can get them custom made with any color you want, any size, bulk heads, more than one acrylic viewing pane, whatever you want basically.
If you don't mind looking at a trim on the viewing pane(s) this is a very cheap route to go. I might buy one these tanks for my CW setup and then in the future buy a custom 1" tank when I can afford it.
If you don't mind looking at a trim on the viewing pane(s) this is a very cheap route to go. I might buy one these tanks for my CW setup and then in the future buy a custom 1" tank when I can afford it.
steveweast
Active member
They don't seem cheap to me.....my custom 1" tanks (2 tanks and a sump) were that or less. Contact James at www.envisionacrylics.com and get a quote. He works with 1" acrylic alot and generates quite a bit of useless small pieces from which he can make small cold tanks from. Call him first and check (it can't hurt).....he's very familar with cold tanks.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
Thanks Steve, I gave him a e-mail for a quote however it's the shipping cost that worries me, Oregon to Massachusetts is literally coast to coast.
mr. bojangsjang
New member
Hey Steve I just saw your 850 gallon reef on the front page of envisionacrylics, BEAUTIFUL!
Anthony Calfo
New member
and FWIW/to others thinking about coldwater systems and DIY, there are great instructions for building insulated aquaria (as well as glass, fiberglass, plywood, etc) in one of my fov old books (out of print but still available used and cheap - often on Amazon):
The Living Aquarium (Crescent publishing).
kindly, Anth-
The Living Aquarium (Crescent publishing).
kindly, Anth-
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