The Future!!!!!!
- Thread starter bahhareef
- Start date
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
there should always be reefs "should" you guys have seen how fast these guys can grow, they'll just creep to colder and colder water as it becomes inhabitable, I'm sure not in the numbers they are now, but I really wouldn't be too worried about it. It's not like there's much we can do about it, what's done is done. Think of it this way, in the 30's we had a 2-3 degree higher average global temps than we even have now. I'm sure we'll get there, but they survived it then, I'm sure they'll survive it now. It could actually help also, only the strong polyps will survive, kind of senario. Or, like forest fires, forests always come back stronger after a burn.
Ya never know!
Ya never know!
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Yes, we should just give up and not worry, humans are helpless anyway. If the coral move to colder water as the planet heats up, where do the organisms go that are displaced by them? Where do the cold water coral go? What happens if the only cold water is too deep to support high light demanding coral? Too many questions for me to be comfortable.
We were not 2-3 degrees higher in the 30's compared to now link
If only the strong polyps survive, what happens to the "weak" polyps? How is extinction helping anything?
There is a huge difference between the warming of oceans and a forest fire. Warming oceans will be a long term disturbance, where a forest fire is a periodic disturbance. After the fire is gone, the same conditions are present that were there before the fire, and the forest can grow back.
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
wow, who the hell asked for this %$@#? way to go jumping on me, and way to go hijacking a thread with yet ANOTHER arguement on global warming, they asked a simple question, and I answered it. If you don't like something that somebody says, you RESPECTFULLY disagree and then say what you think, read my past posts, I have NEVER had a problem with anybody on this forum, so, seems it's you mate.
Also, surface temps are raising for every planet in our solar system, havent you heard of mars' melting polar ice caps? And what's the ONLY common factor between all those planets? The sun, and the peak of this solar cycle will be in 2012, after that you will see the temps drop again, and yes this temp increase was longer than most and there is a simple explination for that, this is the most intense solar cycle EVER recorded, also the down-turn of the solar cycles mysteriously coincides with the lower temps on that graph you posted. Stop listening to evil dr. Al-Gore and actually do some recarch for yourself.
There's my piece, and if the moderators don't like it either, please, feel free to ban me, but first, look at all my posts, you will see nothing but praise.
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
And BTW, NOAA wrote that temp graph by the false concieved notion that CO2 level HAVE TO mean that the temps were higher, those are NOT real temps.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Sheesh, settle down. You're the one who brought up warming temperatures, I just corrected you. And I didn't mean any disrespect, your views were just flawed.
Believe me, I've done my share of research, and although the sun definitely influences global climate, it does not account for all of the recent warming. Also, here is an article on Mars warming link
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
No, those aren't projections from some model, those are recorded anomalies.
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
"Yes, we should just give up and not worry, humans are helpless anyway" That's what I took as disrespect, can you blame me?
Also, do you expect anyone to think that realclimate.org is a reputable organization, cmon, look at the name, it implies that they're the be all, end all, of climate knowledge, you don't see people linking to sites named like globalwarmingisfalse.org because it would be assinine. And yes, I was the first one to mention the phrase 'global warming' but in my defence most of your past posts have been in global warming threads, and if history shows, then that's what you meant here too, we're not idiots.
Finally, I am done hijacking this guys thread, it's rude, so feel free to PM me to continue this discussion if you like, but not if you're going to be acting like the first line of your first post on this thread, I will only carry-on a conversation with somebody that is going to talk to me like a descent human being. Now with all that being said
bahhareef-"What do you think the future of reefkeeping will be like? If coral reefs do bleach and become naturally extinct (heaven forbid) effectively the only habitat for corals and their inhabitants will be aquariums."
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
Re: The Future!!!!!!
I believe that there will always be reefs of some sort, and not just a pile of rocks offshore, because technically those are reefs also, Maybe not in the numbers, size, or health, but they'll be there. I don't think that we'll see the day of "total reef extinction"
I'll phrase my answer more carefully this time as not to have your thread hijacked agan.
I believe that there will always be reefs of some sort, and not just a pile of rocks offshore, because technically those are reefs also, Maybe not in the numbers, size, or health, but they'll be there. I don't think that we'll see the day of "total reef extinction"
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
No, I can't. Sorry.
Yes, it is very reputable. This is from their website:
RealClimate is a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists for the interested public and journalists. We aim to provide a quick response to developing stories and provide the context sometimes missing in mainstream commentary. The discussion here is restricted to scientific topics and will not get involved in any political or economic implications of the science.
If global warming does not end the reefs as we know them, then human polution, boating incidents, cyanide, dynamiting, etc. etc. will. The fact of the matter is that 20 years ago we had beautiful reefs along Florida and today? The die off is unprecedented, even compared to the meteorite that destroyed (or forced evolotion of) the dinosaurs.
That being said, maybe the only way we will have of looking at reefs is through proper propogation and growing our own. That must include our ability to renew the water in our systems as clean water also becomes a thing of the past, and keep the systems stable. Even the Weast tanks in the world would do little if used en-masse to "repopulate" one reef section, should we attempt to do so in the future.
Not a great deal has changed in reef keeping in the past 20 years. We are still fighting the same fights (to feed or not to feed; metal halide vs. fluorescent vs. ???; sand bed or no?; etc, etc.) Yet, I believe our knowledge has increased 10 fold in a very short period of time thanks to sharing knowledge on forums such as this one and improved technology. We may find that the next 5 or 10 years (the near future) may have even more breakthroughs, and perhaps even more importantly reef tanks will be easy enough for anyone to keep a tank of vibrant, healthy, sexually productive corals.
Here is to that hope.
That being said, maybe the only way we will have of looking at reefs is through proper propogation and growing our own. That must include our ability to renew the water in our systems as clean water also becomes a thing of the past, and keep the systems stable. Even the Weast tanks in the world would do little if used en-masse to "repopulate" one reef section, should we attempt to do so in the future.
Not a great deal has changed in reef keeping in the past 20 years. We are still fighting the same fights (to feed or not to feed; metal halide vs. fluorescent vs. ???; sand bed or no?; etc, etc.) Yet, I believe our knowledge has increased 10 fold in a very short period of time thanks to sharing knowledge on forums such as this one and improved technology. We may find that the next 5 or 10 years (the near future) may have even more breakthroughs, and perhaps even more importantly reef tanks will be easy enough for anyone to keep a tank of vibrant, healthy, sexually productive corals.
Here is to that hope.
NY_Carp_Sticker
New member
Yes I too feel we are about to enter a "technology reniassance" That we havent seen in a while, and they usually seem to improve our quality of life in every aspect
I'm not really sure what you men by cyanide, and especially dynamite, destroying the reefs? I'm not saying that you're wrong but it's the first that I've heard of this.
I'm not sure where you get your information about florida's reefs, but I was under the impression that all the work being done to sink or build "artifitial reefs" has done wonders for the health, numbers, and spread of floridas's reefs, maybe your numbers don't include these as they arent deemed to be truly "wild" reefs?I do know that everthing short of armed guards has been done to save the wild reefs across the world recently, as in no more shiping channels to be dug, large filter screens to catch larger polution like plastic bags and things built into streams and rivers, and dramatic changes in the types of field fertilization used (ie: the work being done to curb the invation of the crown of thorns starfish on the great barrier reef, they are doing more damage to the great barrier than anything else hasin the last 50 years)
Lately it seems more is being done for the reefs around the word than our brothers and sisters living under bridges and in boxes on almost every street corner in America, I'm torn on that issue, one part of me sees how much more we care for other things and makes me sad, but part of me says that they've had as much oppertunity to live the "american dream" that I have, I know that I havent been givin any hand outs.
I really don't have an answer to all the issues nor do I claim to, If I did I sure as hell would be paid alot more than I do for my modest but honest machist's living.
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Cyanide is squirted into the reef to stun reef fish and make them easy to capture in some parts of the world. It use to be much more widespread, but a lot of pressure has been put on the collectors to stop because the fish have poor survival and the cyanide kills the reefs. It's still a major problem though.
Blast fishing is also a common way to catch fish on the reef in many parts of the world. Dynamite or home-made bombs are thrown on the reef and the fishermen collect the maimed and dying fish. Obviously it destroys the reef. It's illegal pretty much world-wide, but as with most measures meant to protect the reefs, it's nearly impossible to enforce in the areas where it's historically been a problem.
Florida's reefs are in absolutely terrible shape. The three main reef building corals have been functionally extinct on most reefs there for the past 20 years and don't show much sign of recovery. A lot of Florida's reefs were on the edge before human impacts though. The really troubling thing is that the same story of the loss of the primary reef builders is true in most of the Caribbean where reef development has been historically good.
There isn't a whole lot of data about what good artificial reefs do. It's unlikely that they have any significant impact on coral populations, and they may not even have much impact on fish.
Very little has been done to protect reefs around the world. Coastal runoff and pollution is still increasing, fishing pressure is still increasing, mangrove destruction is still increasing, wildlife protection laws are still unenforceable, very little has been done to curb CO2 emissions, etc. Essentially nothing has been done to curb the biggest manmade threats to the reefs.
Also, FWIW there is no demonstrated link between pollution and crown of thorns outbreaks. We also don't know that they're a new phenomenon since we have only really been documenting them since about the 1970s. We don't even know if they are even a real threat to the reefs. Most of the reefs that are wiped out are back to pre-outbreak coral densities within a few years.
I agree that there may always be reefs, but I don't expect them to be recognizable to us. The idea that corals will just creep further north is unlikely. Calcium availability is a big problem. Once you go past northern FL, you don't have enough calcium for fast reef-building. The water isn't saturated with aragonite like it is in the tropics and the sand switches from calcium to silica, so even if the pH continues to drop there still isn't a new source of calcium. Also, as pH continues to drop the area with enough dissolved aragonite to support fast growth will shrink towards the tropics.
So there are several factors that would prevent reefs from moving north, particularly in the Atlantic. The main reef builders are already gone, so the reefs are growing slower than in the past, those corals recruit poorly, so their recovery and spread is slow, and calcium availability won't allow for faster growth if they do start moving. To compound all of those problems the expected sea level increase will drown a lot of reefs since it's expected to be very fast in geologic terms.
To answer the original question, I don't think reefs will go extinct any time soon but I do think it's likely that they'll become unrecognizable to us as we think of reefs today. I also think in the near future wild collected livestock will be a thing of the past, at least in the US. That will probably be due to legislation rather than a push by hobbyists. Depending on how soon that happens either we will end up with good availability of cultured corals and fish and the hobby will continue or we'll have roughly the same, limited selection we have now and the hobby will essentially die off as people get bored or species go extinct within the hobby.
Jesus man! whats your problem?
He wasnt being offensive at all? It seems someone starts some "intelligent" debate or questioning you throw your toys out fo the cot.
You say corals will cope cos they can grow fast. You really dont understand corals and coral bleaching and ocean acidification then do you? Your just geussing.
And to say "what can we humans do". Well we are the ones that have made the climate change,so im sure if we really wanted we could halt the changes. But hey lets just keep smiling and leave it for another generation to face (although reefs will more than likely be gone before then anyway). Maybe god will come down and wave his magic wand,and all the world will be o.k then.
And to compare Mars with Earth?! Well im lost for words on that one! I think that must say something about you and the way you see things. :bum:
You really need to do more research on. It seems you have been living under a rock with rose tinted glasses on for quite some time.
Sorry to be so harsh,but it enraging to have people saying how great everything is,and how it will all be o.k. When it clearly isnt,and if we dont act it wont all be o.k.
You remind me of this US congressman on a Conservation documentary i watched last month. He was denying large scale rainforest deforestation was happening. He said "well the amazon is still there". Yeah but every year 50 Million acres are cut down. 80% of rainforest have been cleared,and they are dissapearing at a faster rate than ever before.
I can understand someone not knowing what is going on if they claim to have no interest or knowledge about it. But you claim to have all the knowledge,when really you couldnt be anymore wrong.
tropicalfishguy
New member
Well, whether people believe we are harming the world, or global warming is "real" or not (which I happen to beleive it is), the fact of the matter is there are various factors which are harming the reefs, and without some changes its a possibility they could be damaged beyond repair. Also even if humans aren't the cause to all the above, there is no harm in being a little more environmently friendly, and quit wasting so much power, polluting, etc.
I didnt start this thread to address global warming. The issue I wanted to address was the future of our hobby. Global warming is happening and the possibility of coral reefs disappearing is a real threat if humans dont change their ways.
My belief is that if coral reefs do become extinct in the wild, then effectively hobbyists will be providing their only environment. Although I obviously do not want this to happen, I think that this will improve our hobby. More people will want to keep aquariums since the inhabitants of them are naturally extinct. Prices of equipment will drop and be improved.
My belief is that if coral reefs do become extinct in the wild, then effectively hobbyists will be providing their only environment. Although I obviously do not want this to happen, I think that this will improve our hobby. More people will want to keep aquariums since the inhabitants of them are naturally extinct. Prices of equipment will drop and be improved.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
I don't think the destruction of natural reefs will improve the hobby at all. Hobbyists will only be allowed to keep captive raised organisms, which eliminates the prospect of ever getting anything new into the hobby. Also, the amazing beauty of natural reefs will be gone, and that is what often gets people into the hobby. There is no way anything beneficial will come of it. There might be more money given to zoos and public aquariums, but the hobbyist end will only suffer.
tropicalfishguy
New member
I don't think the extinction of the reef could help the hobby in any way, shape of form. Could you imagine the price of livestock if the only available is captive bred. I can see it now, yellow tangs $599.99, there would certainly be more demand than supply, so the existing supply would get pretty pricey IMO
I've been diving off of Belieze and down 100 feet. My computer said 72F just below the surface and 72F at 100 feet. I saw coral and fish down there. I don't think they'll be too affected by the extra UV or global warming too much. However, who knows how things will actually play out as new data are showing actual conditions may be occuring at faster rates than modeled.
There will be lots of near surface acro's that may die off. Or that reefs around the world may suffer. This isn't the first time sea level has changed or temperatures have change - but the intersting thing is we don't know if its ever been warmer with this much life onboard. But loss of say 50% of current coral reefs, that may be just the drop in the bucket compared to the rest of biodiversity that may suffer from global warming. Daniel Quinn made an analogy that I'll attempt to paraphrase here: it's like we, our society, are building a brick tower and the way we are building it now with the broad species extinctions is by taking bricks from the base to build at the top. It's pretty clear what will happen to those at the top if the base no longer supports the tower.
It's pretty clear to me that the way we live today will not be the way we live 50 years from now. I think by this discussion we are only scratching the surface of what may come. Personally, I'm enjoying the hobby while I can because it truely does provide me with a challenging level of enjoyement and rewards. However, I can see this one luxury eventually being affordable only by the ubber-rich. Simply consider the energy and transportation demands this hobby en-mass requires.
But yes, it is possible for the hobby to be sustainable.
There will be lots of near surface acro's that may die off. Or that reefs around the world may suffer. This isn't the first time sea level has changed or temperatures have change - but the intersting thing is we don't know if its ever been warmer with this much life onboard. But loss of say 50% of current coral reefs, that may be just the drop in the bucket compared to the rest of biodiversity that may suffer from global warming. Daniel Quinn made an analogy that I'll attempt to paraphrase here: it's like we, our society, are building a brick tower and the way we are building it now with the broad species extinctions is by taking bricks from the base to build at the top. It's pretty clear what will happen to those at the top if the base no longer supports the tower.
It's pretty clear to me that the way we live today will not be the way we live 50 years from now. I think by this discussion we are only scratching the surface of what may come. Personally, I'm enjoying the hobby while I can because it truely does provide me with a challenging level of enjoyement and rewards. However, I can see this one luxury eventually being affordable only by the ubber-rich. Simply consider the energy and transportation demands this hobby en-mass requires.
But yes, it is possible for the hobby to be sustainable.
Similar threads
