The stars align - False Percs finally lay again!

[jbrinker]

Finally, after two months (to the DAY) they lay again! The nest appeared this afternoon sometime when no one was home. Looks small - perhaps 200 eggs. I wonder if she will lay more tonight or tomorrow.

Anyone following my other thread probably is familiar with my situation, and I still don't know exactly what I did right. But, that aside, I have a few more concerns now.

I have a GREAT nano and rotifer culture going downstairs. I can harvest a TON of rots every day. I had been putting a healthy dose in the tank with their food about 3-4 times a week. They go nuts. I think this may have helped.

I have finally mastered nano (after 2 tries) and rots (3 tries there too). But I think I have it nailed now.

SO, next week I have to be ready for babies. This time they layed on the glass, so no chance of removing the eggs. I think I am going to try the "harvest eggs with a cut straw" method described in great detail over on marinebreeder.org.

I will use a large glass funnel as a hatchery like he says to in that thread. I plan to harvest only about half the eggs - this is just a trial and I want them to feel like they had a hatch naturally.

The big problem I have is, my nano and rot cultures are all at half-strength seawater (still). How do I add the rots/nano to the fry tank without shocking the rots? I dont want to crash the cultures (god no!) now. Should I gently raise the culture sg for the rots/nano? Or will "enough" rots survive?

I have only a glass floating hydrometer.

Advice?

 

[MYDRAAL]

I'de be more concerned about the rots. What are they and your larva tank at exactly? The rots can tolerate a change of up to .007 without going into shock.

 

[jbrinker]

That's what I meant, sort of. Both the rots and nano are at half-strength. I make full-strength seawater, and cut it 1:1 with RO water. I use this for make-up in the nano, and when cleaning the rots.

I have not measured the sg, I will tonight.

My concern is that I use the nano water to feed the rots. So really it all needs to be the same sg.

I guess I will carefully raise it over a few days. Unless I could keep the eggs/larvae at half-strength as well?

(would moving them from 1.022 to half strength kill them (as eggs))?

Jeff

 

[MYDRAAL]

I would get rots and phyto to a sg of 1.014 and have your larva tank at 1.021. That will put you in the .007 range when you have to add rots to the larva tank. Slowly over the next few days like you said shouldn't harm either. IMO I wouldn't lower the sg of the larva tank much more than stated. If you do just make sure you stay in the .007 range, because it will shock the rots and they'll stop swimming, which will cause larva to stop eating them. 1.022 is not full strength seawater that's why I asked for exact sg because some of us keep our tanks slighlty under natural seawater. What made you decide to start up both cultures at half strength if you don't mind me asking

 

[jbrinker]

OK, that's the plan then. I will restart one of the nano cultures tonight (its almost gone) using full strength SW. I think I will simply take the pint or so remiaining and drip 1.022sg water into it slowly overnight. By morning it should be up to close to full strength, and hopefully still alive.

If that works, I will do the same with the others.

For the rots, I guess I will do the same. Sieve them down so they are concentrated, put about 1/4 of their water back in and slowly drip full strength water in overnight.

The marinebreeder.org website seems down - which sucks because I had planned to use the method outlined there. Hopefully it comes back online, or I can remember enough about it.

J

 

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13789850#post13789850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker

The marinebreeder.org website seems down - which sucks because I had planned to use the method outlined there. Hopefully it comes back online, or I can remember enough about it.

J

I have not been able to get on for 4 days!

 

[jbrinker]

Well good then at least its not just me

The method I was going to use was the one outlined there a few weeks ago (when I saw it, thread was older I think).

Harvest:
Whomever it was used a method of harvesting the eggs with a diagonal cut soda straw hooked to a tube as a siphon. Gently working the tip under an egg pops it loose, and the get sucked to a container for collection.

Hatching:
He then added them to a contraption made with a large glass funnel. The bottom of the funnel is plugged with a stopper, and an air tube inserted in the stopper as a bubbler. Air pump is kept above funnel level on a shelf.

The slow bubbles create a current, and the eggs slide down the funnel, and get rotated back up. He used this method anywhere up to a few days before anticipated hatch.

On hatch night, he'd keep them completely dark for a couple hours, then stop the bubbling and siphon any larvae to a container, and into the rearing tank. Cover the eggs if any remain and wait for more hatch later or next night.

Rearing:

He used a "flat globe type fish bowl" - you know the kind. Round vertically but with a flat front and back - like a large horizontal cylinder. This he put a bubble tube low on one side, slow bubbles create a circular current. Add rots and nano. The larvae swim into the current and get lots of rots that way. Crud collects at the bottom and can be siphoned off every day or two.

After that things were pretty much the same as everyone else.

Comments? Anyone else see that thread?

I plan to harvest only about half of the nest. I want to let them keep most of it, hoping that they continue breeding. Plus, I now view this as an experiment and trial, and want to see how far I get.

Jeff

 

[FB]

I believe what you are talking about is a kreisel.

I'm not sure if this would work with clown eggs. From what I have read these are mainly for pelagic breeders.

BTW I just got onto MOFIB. Check yours!

 

[jbrinker]

Sweet.

Here is the thread I was talking about :

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2213&highlight=straw

 

[FB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13791297#post13791297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jbrinker
Sweet.

Here is the thread I was talking about :

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2213&highlight=straw

Good Read - Thanks!

 

[jbrinker]

OK, Tonight's the night probably. I am fully prepared this time (I think)...

- I have about 5 gallons of very thick rotifer going full blast
- I have about 9 gallons of good nano
- I have raised the Sg of all my cultures to match the tank (and brood) water

I purchased a huge glass funnel on ebay, and have that all rigged up as in that thread I posted. I'm using a 5-gallon aquarium to hold the funnel, and will fill the aquarium partially and put a heater in it to maintain temperature at 82F (same as tank). (Water in tank is just to allow heater to indirectly heat the funnel)

I will be buying a 2-gallon fishbowl today (they have them at petco) for the larvae rearing tank (kreisel).

The eggs started to show shiny eyes last night, and this morning they are all still there. So I think tonight is the night. They were laid mid-day last Wednesday. Tank temp is 82F. Parents are happy (for now).

This evening about 9:30pm I will harvest about half the eggs with the straw and tube method, transfer to the funnel, bubble until about 11pm, and lights out. I will come back down a couple hours later and check, and transfer any hatchlings to the fish bowl.

I plan to add rotifers and nano at that time, and keep the lights on dimly 24/7 as instructed for the first 7-10 days. I guess at that point it just becomes a battle to grow enough rotifers and nano to keep up with the larvae.

I plan to let the parents keep about half the nest. Its a small nest anyway, and I want them to get on with laying a new one. I don't even anticipate rearing any of these past meta, but I hope to. Maybe I will at least learn enough to get the next group through.

Someone mentioned a food to feed - oothime? rather than BBS. Id rather NOT have to hatch something else at this point...

Any advice appreciated. I will take some pics and report the success or failure...

Jeff

 

[FB]

Sounds like an excellent plan of action.

I can't wait to see how the straw/ kriesl method works for you.

I still recommend BBS but you can go from rotifers to Otohime A.

For more info on Otohime - http://www.reed-mariculture.com/otohime/

Good Luck

FB

ps. Don't forget the PICS!

 

[jbrinker]

Well... not so good news.

Tuesday night I pulled about 1/2 the nest, using the straw method. No problem there. I bubbled them in the funnel ever since, making the lights work in sync with the tanl\k.

No hatch tuesday night.... Bubbled all day yesterday, and no hatch last night either. They were laid last Wed, Daytime.

Temp is 75 (I mis-stated 82 earlier).

They are all still alive, I have taken some under a magnifier in a petri dish to check - still see heartbeat and their little eyes follow me from inside the egg.

Are they going to hatch? The remaining ones in the tank were GONE at 1am tuesday night. I came back down after lights out to see if any hatched, and collect with a flashlight, and there were NONE, no eggs, no remnants, no fry. I think mom and dad ate them.

So, Im not sure if I havent waited long enough, or what to do. Is there a situation where they cant hatch but are alive? Can I help them hatch? They still seem to have decent sized yolks.

Jeff

(I have pics, but no time to post them right now)

 

[FB]

I have heard that if they are in a strong egg sac than they may not be able to push their way out without any leverage when done in this manner

FB

 

[jbrinker]

Do you think it's possible to "force hatch" them? I thought about giving them tonight to try again, and if not then taking a small pair of tweezers, hold the sack by the former attachment point, and using rounded tool (paperclip?) to sort of "roll" them from the bottom. I.e. "POP" them out. I realize this is probably likely to kill some, but I want to try something. Clearly they will die in the sack at some point...

Jeff

 

[FB]

Thats sound way to complicated and time consuming to even try.

You might consider taking half out and put them in none moving water. When they settle they might be able to push on the bottom to get out.

At this point what have you got to lose trying either.

FB

 

[jbrinker]

Yeah.. I sort of half tried that... does not work. Not without a full micro surgery set up anyway

I have some posts over on MOFIB that suggest that sometimes the tumbling method delays hatch a day or even two. Also, I may have pulled them a day too soon. I don't think so, but its possible. I just went dark downstairs and we will see what happens tonight.

Thanks!!
JEff

 

[jbrinker]

Update:

Set the eggs to tumbling last night, lights out at 10:30pm. Went back down to check at 12:30am, ALL had hatched. 100%. I had about 50 I'd guess, all healthy looking and spirited, darting around the funnel.

I siphoned them all into the glass bowl (2 gallon flat sided), and added water from the main tank to top up. Moved the heater from the hatching apparatus, and turned on a slow bubble on the right side of the bowl half-way down.

Added a good scoop of rotifers, and a half-cup of nano water. Went back to bed.

8am, lost all but about 15-20. Probably 60% dead on the bottom. Ammonia alert badge just barely showing on light green. (0.02)

Siphoned the dead and any dirt from the bottom, topped up with tank water. Temp had crept to 82F (From 75) so I lowered the temp on the heater one click.

I decided I didn't like the ammonia situation, so I added a small live rock from the main tank (about 3in x 2in). By this afternoon ammonia was at 0ppm. The remaining larvae appear healthy, and are feeding vigorously. I siphoned a bit (1c) and added some more nano this evening.

No more deaths since this am.

I think two or three things contributed to the deaths.

1) The fry hatched "late" by at least one day, perhaps two. Under inspection the day of the hatch, they had pretty small yolk sacks remaining. None had any apparent upon hatch. Some may have starved before learning to eat?

2) Ammonia from the dead, from the rots, and from the nano itself. 0.02 is not much though.

3) Temp increase (coupled with ammonia). I had not intended this, and will note to turn the heater down next time (or use another one).

I was about to use an "ammonia lock" product, but think the piece of live rock works even better. The larvae seem to like it, and none appear to have any problem with it. The circulation keeps them in constant motion anyway.

I look forward to any insight into the deaths anyone may have...

Jeff

 

[jbrinker]

Log Update:

Log Update:

Day 4 - still 10 remain alive. No deaths since day 2.

So, for the log, here's the recap:

- Friday 1am hatch. All eggs hatch, 100%, about 50 fry swimming vigorously. Siphon to 2 gallon flat sided fishbowl. Add tank water. Add rotifers and greenwater. Go to bed.

- Friday 8am: ~30 dead. About 15 still alive, seemingly fine. Ammonia alert badge is on the lowest level - 0.02. Siphon out dead and any debris, replace with tank water. Temp 76F

- Friday 8pm: 2 more dead, siphon out. Rots have cleared water, add more greenwater and a small piece of live rock from display tank (~2"x3"x2"). Ammonia still at 0.02 alert. Temp 76F

- Friday 10pm: Ammonia at 0.00. 1 more dead. Clean up, go to bed.

- Saturday: One more dead (perhaps from earlier, just found body). Clean tank, add more greenwater. Water changes amount to only about 2 cups at a time. Begin to increase temp per reccomendation from MOFIB. By end of day, temp is 78F.

- Sunday: No more deaths. 10 remain, and are very active feeders. Big silver bellies. Keep cleaning ~2c a day of water, and replacing with a mix of greenwater and tank water (just enough green to keep a light green tint). Temp now at 80F.

- Monday: Still very active, getting visibly larger. All 10 remain. Same every day now, clean and add water/greenwater. Target temp is now 82F.

General notes: Feeling is that the low temps I chose to use retarded the hatch and caused the larvae to use up much of their energy reserves before hatching, thus causing the low survival rate. I will use 82F-85F next time and see what happens. Other thought is that the temp swing from the hatching vessel to the fishbowl may have caused additional stress. Mental note to have the bowl set up, filled and temp adjusted ahead of time next time.

I have been keeping the lights on 24/7 as noted in the thread I referenced above. The larvae seem to be active 24/7, feeding continuously. I have had to only add rotifers one time - they seem to be multiplying in the fishbowl with the addition of greenwater. I have kept densities high, the larvae can hardly move without bumping into a rotifer.

With more larvae, I would probably have to add more rots. I t hink I will make an effort over the next few days to change a bit more than 2c of water - more like 1qt - each day. I don't like the way the rots seem to pollute the water. Although, as long as the ammonia stays low, should not be a problem.

I think the addition of a seasoned live rock is a BIG plus for a larva tank. The ammonia went down almost instantly. Even in a tank (rather than kreisel) it would be a huge advantage. The larvae do not get caught on it, or seem annoyed by it. I see no reason to use a completely bare tank when the benefits of some biological filtration are quite clear.

I welcome comments, and will update with more info as I proceed. Mother and father are cleaning again, and mom is HUGE. I expect a big spawn sometime later this week.

Oh, and I have pics too. Will post later...

 

[jbrinker]

Ohyeah, a question, at what day does one generally start introducing BBS or Otohime A? I have ordered some Otohime but it will be a few days until it gets here. I have brine to hatch if I need to. How long can they go on just rots?

Jeff