Using Formalin/Malachite green for Ich

[appellativo]

I've been treating my fish only tank since last Monday because I saw two fish flashing and a white spot on another. As per the bottle of Rid Ich (formalin/malachite green) and my success with freshwater tanks I've had, I dosed daily 5 ml per ten gallons (30 gallon tank), right after a daily 25% water change, dosing at night for optimal results (ich hatches between 2am and 9am) and continue for 3-4 days after all signs of disease have gone away.

Today I've read this article though, which says that you should treat once every three days and no more than three treatments. I am wondering for any of you knowledgeable with this medicine, what protocol you use. (Please, if you have no experience or firsthand knowledge and you choose to comment, please state that you are commenting based on your opinion without experience, thank you!

Please read this article and see his concentration recommendation and other info.

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm

So I'm asking should I switch to the once per three days treatment, continue as I have been doing, or quit treatment and see if the ich comes back? I was considering continuing daily treatment for up to 28+7 days , considering the ich stay son fish for up to 7 days and the encysted ich at the bottom of the tank can stay encysted for up to 28 days.

other info: I have 0 ammonia, 0nitrite, 10ppm nitrate, ph 8.0, 1.022, temp 78, 10% water changes weekly, six small fish in 30 gallon who all get along and are eating well frozen commercial, frozen homemade foods soaked in zoecon and garlic. tank has great oxygen levels as per lfs (I don't have an oxygen test kit), hob cpr bak pak skimmer and maxijet 1200 powerhead and of course a heater. I've used hypo in the past but do not want to do that this time. I've used tank transfer in the past but do not want to do this this time (too many fish too big a tank too much stress) Been in and around the hobby for ten years.

 

[MrTuskfish]

This isn't what you're looking for; but experience with FW doesn't translate into the same with SW ich. FW & SW ich are entirely different critters. I think if you read the first pages of the ich stickies above, you'll find that most folks use copper, hypo (I don't suggest it), or tank-transfer. Chloroquinine phosphate also should be on this list, IMO. I have tried both ingredients in Rid-Ich and neither worked. I also tried them in combination and killed the fish. This was many years ago and I can't remember details. Formalin is primarily a brooklynella cure.

Also, ich can stay in the cyst form for much longer than 28 days. Snorvich has a sticky that shows the testing and findings that were done. Read the 1st page" http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2313458Snorvich is a real expert on SW ich and his info above has been proven effective countless times. We are lucky to have his expertise at RC.

FWIW, I did look at the article you referenced. But didn't read the whole thing because in author or references were listed.

 

[appellativo]

It's okay. So it sounds like in your opinion I should discontinue the rid ich plus. Also, did you mean to link the thread about whether or not to feed goldfish as feeders? (I did read ich how to cure it id it understand it thread already.)

Here is another option that I have: I have sitting new and dry a 55 gallon I wanted to upgrade to. I have some dry base rock. I can put water in that tank, with the base rock, and some startsmart starter bacteria with some powerheads and get that tank going.

then I could remove the fish into a ten gallon tank and do the tank transfer method on them for the twelve days. Then put them into the 55 gallon, supplementing with more startsmart bacteria. Its not a perfect plan but it is one more alternative to either stopping treatment and praying, or continuing the rid ich plus treatment. Of course I would leave the rock in the thirty gallon fallow for six weeks minimum before reintroducing it into the 55 gallon. Opinions please!

 

[MrTuskfish]

Here's the link I meant to send, the 1st page says it all.. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2041951. Tank transfer works very well, but is tough with a lot of fish. I would make a HT out of the 55. No rock, substrate, pvc pieces for shelter, etc. Then treat with Cupramine or Chloroquinine phosphate. Copper has some little quirks and I'd re-post if you go that way. CP is expensive, hard to find, but works great. I'm new to the small CP bandwagon. I've used Cupramine for many years and am very comfortable with it.

 

[appellativo]

Mr Tuskfish the only way I'd consider using cupramine again (the last time was a disaster, and I am OCD and researched and followed directions to the letter, and I wanted to tear my hair out, finally had to abandon the treatment as the fish were too stressed by it) is if you give me your phone number and be my personal consultant! LOL any offers...?

(crickets chirping....)

 

[MrTuskfish]

Mr Tuskfish the only way I'd consider using cupramine again (the last time was a disaster, and I am OCD and researched and followed directions to the letter, and I wanted to tear my hair out, finally had to abandon the treatment as the fish were too stressed by it) is if you give me your phone number and be my personal consultant! LOL any offers...?

(crickets chirping....)

Sounds strange, but NOT following the directions is what makes Cupramine easy. SeaChem tech support is great and will give better answers than the bottle---they are supposed to be changing it. IMO: the recommended dosage is too high, the time to introduce it should be much longer, it needs to be in the QT longer, etc. Also, you can't use ammonia neutralizers with Cu and many copper test kits don't work with Cu. I'm used to these quirks and know Cu works well for most other folks too. You're right though, without being armed with the right info, Cu can be a disaster. I do give it a lot of credit for having about 1000 gals of DTs though. I assume its the best selling ich eradicator, with good reason. Here's all the poop on CU, the FAQ are great.
I'd read the info on chloroquinine phosphate too. I'm convinced the Cu or CP are the only way to permanently eradicate ich; not just control it for a while.
Tank-Transfer belongs in this category too; it depends on how many fish you have to medicate. I like the idea of curing an infected tank with Cu or CP and then using TT with new fish.

 

[appellativo]

(where's all the poop on Cu? what faq?)

(looking sideways at you dubiously)....well, okaaay....you sound confident and that's what I need right now. Perhaps I could remove the LR from the 30 gallon (current DTwith fish in it), siphon the little CC that's in there, and treat with copper in there. I'll consider it after reading the poop (link?) on Cu and the FAQ...Let me see those and I'll think about it.

edit: is this it? http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html

looks like cupramine when combined with formalin (what I've been using) makes the copper highly toxic. I sent them a message asking about this and if theres any way to treat the tank to remove any traces of formalin. I know formalin breaks down with organics, comes out through skimming (contrary to their instructions), is neutralized with amquel, and breaks down with exposure to light. And is removed with carbon. So I'd tend to ASSUME that if I did all those for a few days I could get away with dosing cupramine, but I'm asking to be sure. Would all this trouble be better than just doing tank transfer and moving them to the CLEAN 55g?

 

[appellativo]

oh one more thing. If I remove all my rock and crushed coral so I can use cupramine, there will be NO MORE BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION. Isn't that sort of a bummer deal?

 

[appellativo]

and why can't you use ammonia neutralizers with cu? what will happen? It wont work, or will it make some sort of freaky toxin that kills the fish?

 

[MrTuskfish]

Here's the link to the Cupramine FAQ: http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html

Ammonia will be a problem unless you planned ahead and have some seeded media in your DT. I've never used Smartstart, there are a dozen bacteria products and most don't work. I would trust Bio-Spira or Dr. Tims in an AquaClear filter...but the tank will need a little time to cycle. . Plan on plenty of WCs to control ammonia.

Be sure new water is dosed with Cu before it goes into the treatment tank. All ich needs is a few minutes with copper under the lethal dose for ich. Prime, and similar products, form a deadly compound---see the FAQ. You'll need a SeaChem or Salifert copper test kit, most Cu tests don't work with Cupramine. Ammonia tests don't either, the little stick on ammonia alert badges do work.

I can't over-emphasize the importance of deviating from the bottle directions as I outlined above. If fish are in distress, then you need to speed it up. If you have time, get fish eating in the QT before adding much copper; if they suddenly stop eating during treatment, its the 1st sign of Cu intolerance. If this happens, reduce CU with Cuprisorb, carbon, or WCs.

 

[appellativo]

I ended up choosing to do tank transfer with the fish. the display has been torn down and everything dried out. I chose to use ammonia to cycle a new display tank (started with all dry CC and base rock, with a bottle of bacteria to hopefully introduce some of that). I will keep the fish in hospital tank limbo till the display is ready. Once they are in their new home, nothing will go into the tank wet from the lfs unless it has also had tank transfer so help me god.

the rock that was in the old display tank was previously mostly base rock with a couple pieces of live rock. That's in the garage drying out. I'm wondering what my protocol should be before putting that rock into the new display tank. i wanted to dry it to kill the ich.

 

[sleepydoc]

+1 on what Tuskfish said about cupramine. The directions on the bottle are much too aggressive. Go slow and test often.

re: your display tank, leaving it fallow while the fish were in the HT would have also worked, but since you're starting over making sure the rock is completely dry for several days should be adequate. If you're paranoid, I suppose you could bake them in the oven at 200º for an hour or so, just to make sure. Just don't add any Teriyaki sauce.

Be aware that there will likely be a fair amount of dead organic material on the rock, so it may take a while to cycle your newly-started tank

 

[appellativo]

Thanks y'all. I will just have to pray a lot that it's ready when the fish are, and if not, I will steal some of my mother in law's live rock from her tank (which is ich free) and make it look all homey in the hospital tank for my fish and have water on hand to hold them over till the tank is ready. Ooooo, I can put some of my ceramic biomedia in her tank to seed it for then, too. I did squeeze out her powerhead intake sponges into a bucket and steal some crushed coral from her tank today to stick in my cycling DT so maybe that will help the situation a little.