Very frustrating hobby. Looking for help.

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

My main problem is I live about 1.5 hours from Orlando parts. I'm really isolated out here in Sebring. I'm having difficulties and there's nobody else out here doing anything but growing algae. So I'm gonna have to drive out to a meeting or pay or beg somebody to come out here to help me. Seems silly to do either since you can get a lot of help in the forums. Maybe even a lot more than you could at a meeting. I just feel like quitting this hobby sometimes. Especially now. I posted my latest problem in the main CHEM forum but here it is just for the record ... BUT I need a lot more help than just this current crisis.

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Just a regular water change... and all hell breaks loose. Right now... ALK is 6.0... and pH is 7.8. Normally my ALK is 9 and I noticed after the last water change (Using the same bag of salt mind you!!) that it was 10-11 ALK. I'm using Coralife Pro? Stuff disolves really fast.. I like it.

So I'm wondering what the hell happened to my pH. The other strange thing was I cleaned the entire sump out and my Kalk hose went into my trash can. So after I put everything together I actually pulled the Kalk pump all the way out and fished the hosed out to make sure it's not on the bottom. I have a pvc table covering the bottom so it's 3" off the bottom. THEN I noticed I had a white storm after adding a little Kalk. I don't know what happened?? I kicked up the settled crap? I've only been using it about a year. There shouldn't be 3-4" or something of stuff on the bottom of my trash can. I shouldn't be anywhere near it. So IF that's what happened what does that mean? I just added a dose of copper and whatever else settled down there? I imagined the stuff like a sludge... ready hard to kick up.

I wanted to mention that b/c I wasn't sure if Kalk could screw up my ALK. As far as I know it just affects pH, Ca, etc. Other than my tank looking like a winter snow-land, just in time for the holidays, I'm not too worried about a little limewater cloud in the tank. I'm more puzzled, and WORRIED, about this pH. I have no idea how it could have happened. I checked my salt mix with a refractometer. The mdt salinity is ok too at about 1.025.

I haven't checked Mg/Ca in awhile b/c for weeks they've been ok and I have little to no growth of anything. Not by choice. I started scaling back to every 2 weeks on that, and sometimes 3-4 weeks since it's not changing. Ca was actually 500+ last time. This hobby is so frustrating. I was reading how the new TOTM finds the hobby very relaxing. After breaking down all my pumps and cleaning out my sump I was not relaxed at all. BUT at least I could bask in the satisfaction of cleaning it up real good. BUT INSTEAD I had a Kalk storm... found it hard to sleep... and now this. Makes you really angry after putting 4 hours into it and this is what happens. Every few months I think about just selling it all. Anybody lives in Central Florida keep your eyes out for my posts if you are looking to buy stuff.

P.S. This is the 2nd time now the past 2 water changes that my JBJ ATO controller has broke. So everybody else be wary of it. All I did was shut my power strip off with 4 other pumps on it to do cleaning and it never came back on. EXACT same thing happened last time. If they send me another one I'll use a new better power-strip but if it does it again.... their product is definitely crap then. OThewise I'm buying something else for ATO.

 

[Swirlygig]

First off sorry to hear about your troubles...I hear ya there, it sucks! Part of being in this hobby...I know you probably know all of this, but I figured in a small case I would mention it...

Just dose baking soda...this will ultimately raise your PH and alk as well...No biggie...The white cloud sounds like your calcium is really high? If you are dosing CA you need to test your water immediately, it can change fast with kalkwasser...

Same for Alk, I check min multiple times a week. My alk can drop from 9 - 7 in a day...If your Alk is low (don't let drop below 7 - you need to dose immediately), your corals will not absorb CA and guess what...no growth/death and excess Calcium in your tank...All your params should be in tact or you won't get a healthy reef tank...

ALWAYS TEST! Your cloud is probably a product of lack of testing and overdosing...

Just use this calculator to figure out how much to dose...you may not need to dose any Kalk right now till your CA lowers (do not use this for a PH buffer)......Test your CA immediately...

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

I stopped dosing Ca+ while back b/c the Kalk was taking care of it. In fact, so little Ca use it was piling up. Only thing growing seems to be Coraline algae. I'm sure there is some other Ca use in there... but the point is I started off using B-Ionic it was around 450 and after time went by... it's like 550 now b/c of the Kalk I think.

I'm mainly using Kalk b/c of the pH problems here in Florida.

Ca @ 550 isn't that high. I bet my Mg dropped on me?? But I still don't get why the Kalk seemed to set things in motion.

I"m gonna go up about 1 dKH/day right now with baking soda.

 

[chrisstie]

Is your house super sealed off? I've found if my pH gets on the low side cracking a window and putting on a fan can fix it. However it sounds like something went a little crazy in your water change if I read everything properly.

If I remember right when your pH is low and possibly alk too you can get that cloudy water syndrome. The guys at the Chem section may be able to help you more but I recall hearing this happening.

Can you check the trash can with a flash light to double check if there is any sediment built up there?

You could probably run some carbon if it doesn't clear up eventually but I'd say crack a window, turn on a fan, and do some testing and make sure your test kits are recent and of a good batch. Maybe mix up a little extra saltwater in case you need to do another change - test the pH on the mixed water too to see if its experiencing problems on your tank. If its a new batch of salt it may have some issues (once in a while they do)

Only things I can think of real quick off the top of my head hope it helps

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

Super sealed.. not any more than normal. But A/C runs all the time around here. I did a lot of tests airing the house out and didn't see my pH improve. That's why I switched to KALK... just another thing to go wrong though eh?

Yea, I'm still not sure what happened. I got a little Kalk that wasn't mixed up or settled yet into the tank and didn't worry about it. No big deal. It cleared quickly. That's what I thought this was. I think this was Ca precipitation. Question is what caused it. I'm no expert either but... if Ca was off the scale that might have thrown my ALK off.

I'll have to wait till the can gets low and use a mirror to check it out. All of this is under my stand and I have to turn my head just to look in there. Really sucks. I built my own sump and thought I'd get a tall tank just in case of overflow and it wasn't necessary. And all it did was make it impossible to work on it.

I always run carbon. I had to clean my sump out b/c even a media bag was getting full of debris. Phosban reactor was totally clogged. I clean the sump out once a year instead of run socks every 3 days all year long. And it worked pretty good till the end there.

The salt was left over from a bag I used the last time. It's definitely not the salt. Two diff. Salifert ALK kits said same. I use a Spectrometer for Salinity. I think it had something to do with the KALK. I need to find out what the precipitate at the bottom of the KALK can is made up of.

 

[chrisstie]

Yeah I only use a sock when im turkey basting off my rock to take out large particles and in the meantime siphon out any nastiness that collects. Maybe there was just some detritus that you missed that somehow managed to snow all over? Otherwise if it is the kalk I'd just hold up and see what your tank does before dosing anything.

I dose a 2 part because my tank isn't very large and if Ca preciptates it looks like little tiny crystals falling from the water but it only happens if i dont wait a minute between parts.

 

[skinnyjoe1976]

okay well first off the calcium at 550 is high and when you tried to raise the alk using the 2 part you persipateted (sp) the calcium into a soild. not a big deal other than it will etch alot of things in the system. it happen to me once, i added 250ml of soda ash 50ml every 15 mintues and the calcium was at 520 and the last 50ml caused it to cloud within mintues. i would not add alk if you are over 500. with you cal being 550 then you will always have low alk. do a larger water change around 50% and then recheck all the values.

is this a fish only system? i noticed you said you put copper in it.
more than lilley your mag is really low if you have that high of calcuium and it's not dropping. get your mag back up to 1350+ and get the calcium back down to 400 range and of course the ph back up and alk to atleast 9 i like it a 10-12dkh.

you said you run carbon, how long do you keep it in there?

the number difference on the salt is common with cheaper salt. i like either reef crystals or oceanic. if you want something to mix quick then oceanic is the quickest. all you need to do is add baking soda to the mix to raise the alk back up.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

I know I do long posts but let me clarify... I don't do 2-part. I have a mixed-reef, no copper. Carbon is run for about 3 months now. I got this new Matrix Seachem? that says you can do that.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

History: Oct-- Nov. weekly #'s
pH 7.8 - 8.0
Salinity 1.026
Ca+ 550
Alk 9-11 dKH
Mg 1300-1350
Nitrates 2-5 (trying to get those down using Prodibio)

Recent History: Starting about 11-10-08 weekly #'s
pH same
Alk same
Nitrates same

After a couple months of weekly ck's I started cutting back on all but the Alk, pH, etc. 3-4 wk cks on Ca/Mg.

Sun 12-21-08 did water change and everything was fine but the ALK was 6.0 using the same bag of salt I used 6 weeks earlier. Only thing I noticed then was my ALK went to about 10 dKH. That's why I think it had something to do with the KALK I dosed right before the Ca precipitation. I'm not sure what happened.

ALK now is up to 8.3 dKH and I gave it a bit more baking soda to up it about 1 dKH. Will ck. tomorrow. pH 7.8 (not dosing KALK now or would be 8.0 probably). Ca+ = 550. Mg 1280... this is GOOD. I'm still thinking it had something to do with the Kalk sludge?

OH.. on 12-10-08 I got a 11 dKH ALK. That may be the problem. I didn't worry about it too much thinking it would settle back down to the normal range. And then adding KALK may have pushed my Ca over the top. Sinking my ALK? But my Ca tests 550 now.

 

[skinnyjoe1976]

with the calcium precipitation was caused by the calcium being way too high and you trying to raise the alk. if you lowered that to natural seawater or close to say 440 then you alk should raise and become more stable. when you try to get to high the water becomes unstable and there is nothing you can do unless you keep adding this to raise that and then this drops and then you add that. it can get pricey. and the mag is a little low imo. try to get that up to 1400 and see if the calcium will come down some when the corals can up take some of it.

and Prodibio is a waste of money imo. look into a denitrater, i had a major nitrate issue and by using a dual chamber sulfur mix made by a local guy i was able to drop mine from 140 to 30 within 3 days. and then dialied it to 0 with a colorimeter. (btw it was seasoned on another tank)

 

[Cheekymonkey]

As far as the JBJ auto-top off dying I think I have some advice for you.

I have had that happen now once with my Tunze auto-top off. The auto-top of unit it self isnt' what breaks. Its the crappy little DC converters from china. Go to radio shack and get yourself a good quality DC converter and I bet it will start working again.

If you need help finding one let me know and I will see what I can do.


I am not sure about the customer service from JBJ but Tunze took great care of me when mine broke. I would see if JBJ will help you out.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

It took them a week or two to respond... then another week to send me a new one.. last time it happened this year some time. With the JBJ there's no converter... just a permanently attached power cord. It's definitely a short of some type. All I did both times was turn the power strip off it, and 4 other things, were connected to.

 

[cur10u5g30rg3]

The JBJ as well as most other can only handly a 2 amp pump. I run mine with a relay setup to run a larger pump. You can buy an "Expansion Pack" from neptune made for their controller which works very well.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

skinnyjoe1976: Yea... I think the KALK raised the ALK a little at a time over weeks.... last reading was 11 dKH.... then that last dosing was over the top. Right now... there's not much I can do to lower Ca but wait... and not use KALK for awhile... BUT my pH might drop really low... like 7.5. Yea.. I can raise the Mg. I thought I read... you don't want to push BOTH #'s high?

Prodibio has worked a bit so far. I can document starting at 5-10 ppm and now it's about 2 ppm. Been using it for 3 months. My goal was to try it and expect 0 in 6 months. I just thought it was easier to use , and cheaper, than Zeovit... but it's basically the same sorta stuff.


cur10u5g30rg3: Hmm... I was thinking of just putting a better power strip on there... IF they send me a new one. I didn't think about the pump AMP's. I read the manual and I thought it was ok... like a simple 3-5 gph pump.

 

[skinnyjoe1976]

if you did 2 50% water changes i think you could help alot of your concerns. one it may help stablize the the alk and ph along with getting the alk up a bit along with mag. what type of salt are you using? then the 50% water changes will drop the nitrates by 25% each time so 2 should get you where you want to be. what are you using to test nitrates?

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

Two WC's... wow. I have to look how to manually lower ALK. I got a feeling I'll be doing that a lot. My pH is hopelessly lost. That's the only reason I messed with KALK. It was going as low as 7.5. Normally it was 7.6.7.8. Now it's 7.8-8.0. I tried airing the house out, bathroom fans on, etc. I have a ton of B-IONIC and a Mg supplement too. I use Coralife. I was using Instant Ocean , like most, but awhile but Coralife is much better. I wish it was more widely available. I gotta go to MarineDepot to get it. I looked all over Central Florida for it. It has much higher Ca/Mg, better Alk... and it completely dissolves very quickly. My IO had all sorts of stuff floating in it, like silicate?, and it never totally dissolved. I use SALIFERT kits to test everything except for a Pinpoint pH meter.

 

[Pacific Reefs]

+1 on the large water change. It sounds old school but it works.

 

[skinnyjoe1976]

yea you would be suprised on what water changes will do. as for coralife salt it seems to be less constant than alot of the others. you my years the one important thing i have learned is keep every thing the same as much as you can. when the chemistery changes then stuff takes alot more time to adjust.

coralife has good numbers but there are alot of other that are better like

Oceanic (just add baking soda to the mix to bring up the alk) great for people that like high mg

580
8.5
1650

Reef Crystals (this is what i use and look at the alk and mag is not bad but is managable)

420
12
1260

D-D H2Ocean (newer salt but good numbers. made by deltec if i remember correctly)

450
10
1380

Tropic Marin Pro Reef ( good numbers but like oceanic it's the most expensive)

450
8.5
1380


i perfer a salt with lower calcium and higher alk. sice i like my alk alitle higher than most it lowers my calcium anyhow. if you go back through the tanks of the month look at the parameters and see how many keep the calcium above 450.

i would not lower the alk, i would lower the calcium which is what caused the concern from the get go. if you keep the calcium below 450 than you can keep the alk up there. you would not even imagine how many people would love to keep there alk where you have yours. i have a buddy that would do a water change and would have a alk reading of 10dkh and within a day it would drop to 6 dkh. he found that a couple of things were causing it. just use some kentmarine super dkh buffer for the ph and see if that helps. are you running a fuge?

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

My pH is not a good situation... but my ALK has always been pretty constant. This is a new mix of Coralife... can't be more than 1-2 years old? Man... maybe I should invest in a ALK monitor? The pH monitor is cheap. I've avoided those $250-$300 ones so far. My ALK has been steady even before B-IONIC or KALK. Sorta like pH it remained constant. Must not have been much Ca usuage? I guess like B-IONIC.... I have to figure out how much KALK my tank is using.. and adjust that too. RIght now I guess I need less. I'll drop to 1/2 dose and still use it for evaporation and see what it does to the #'s. I thought there was NOTHING you could do for pH. It is what it is? I don't want to try and dose pH everyday if it's gonna do what it wants. Yea... I have a fuge... DSB... one last ball of cheato. Cheato has been dying off b/c I've been using Prodibio to cut down the Nitrates and Phosphates so the algae of all types in the tank has suffered. Few rubble pieces in there too. It's only about a 5% of mdt size fuge too. So it's there but not much too it. I run a light on the fuge opposite cycle too.