Vodka Dosing Question

[Lina5910]

I've been researching dosing vodka for a few weeks now because I keep getting algae blooms one after another so im assuming I have high phosphates and nitrates maybe from overfeeding. I also want to bring more color out of my corals. Ive tested ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates and they are at zero. I picked up a salifert phosphate test kit yesterday and tested the water. The results are zero. My macro and hair algae are going crazy though so im assuming if i have nitrates and phosphates, they are consumed by the algae giving me false negative results. If I start dosing vodka in SMALL amounts, will it have negative results on my tank? Im afraid to overdose especially since all my parameters are at zeros, I have no way of knowing if vodka is working or if im overdosing.

I have two 55 gal reefs with a 50 gal sump. They've been set up for almost a year so they are fully established. I run a protein skimmer and a hang on carbon filter. LOTS of macro in my sump and bio balls. Dose kalkwasser. Run 2 150W MH over one tank and T5s over the other.

All my parameters are at zero. Calcium is 440, Alk is 8 dKH, Salinity is 1.025, pH 8.0.

Any advice would be helpful. Thanks

Lina

 

[RA]

I would start by slowly getting rid of the bio balls before dosing vodka. They have got to be creating nitrates in your tank. How much live rock do you have? Also I think you need a new nitrate test kit they can't be zero.

 

[Lina5910]

i have about 100 lbs of live rock.

how can bio balls create nitrates? My understanding is bio balls serve as a filtration system.

Why do i get rid of them slowly? Why cant i just take them out?

I will retest all my parameters here in a min, then swing my an LFS to pick up a new kit

 

[JasonBJones]

Bio Balls don't create nitrates. They developed that reputation years ago when they were used in wet/dry filters. The wet/dry method is what caused the nitrates, not the bio balls. But since bio balls were involved in a filter that created nitrates, they have now forever been linked to nitrates.

They simply provide an inert place for bacteria to grow, just like any other medium in a tank- live rock, sand, etc...

 

[Lina5910]

They simply provide an inert place for bacteria to grow, just like any other medium in a tank- live rock, sand, etc...

thats what i thought. So does this mean i can keep the bio balls? lol

now what about the vodka dosing....

 

[SDguy]

Bio Balls don't create nitrates. They developed that reputation years ago when they were used in wet/dry filters. The wet/dry method is what caused the nitrates, not the bio balls. But since bio balls were involved in a filter that created nitrates, they have now forever been linked to nitrates.

They simply provide an inert place for bacteria to grow, just like any other medium in a tank- live rock, sand, etc...

Bioballs are great at providing a home (large aerobic surface area) for nitrifying bacteria. These are the bacteria that convert ammonia, produced by fish and corals, to nitrite, and then nitrite to nitrate.

Denitrifying bacteria need anaerobic conditions (O2 poor) to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. This is why bioballs are said to produce nitrate. They are only designed to house the aerobic bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate.

 

[Lina5910]

Any advices on the vodka dosing?

 

[scubasteve06]

Bio balls are very efficient in coverting ammonia to nitrate and that's it. The problem is you are stuck with the nitrate with no place for it to go except accumulate in your system. What is your bio load like? IME carbon dosing is for people that have a NO3 or PO4 problem which you seem to not have. I will tell you this though, when I started vodka/vinegar dosing almost 3 weeks ago my hair algae was taking over my coraline algae. Now almost 3 weeks into my carbon dosing the hair algae is gone. The vodka alone didn't do it because the first 5 days with vodka only it did nothing. As soon as I added vinegar to the mix it really helped. You could try starting out with very small doses. I'd go with 1/2 the recommended dose the whole time since you have no measurable nitrates or phosphates. I am going to link you to two great articles that you should read before putting anything carbon related in your tank.http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100910?sub_id=DszPBGS23GCmQ#pg61

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

 

[JasonBJones]

Bioballs are great at providing a home (large aerobic surface area) for nitrifying bacteria. These are the bacteria that convert ammonia, produced by fish and corals, to nitrite, and then nitrite to nitrate.

Denitrifying bacteria need anaerobic conditions (O2 poor) to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. This is why bioballs are said to produce nitrate. They are only designed to house the aerobic bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrate.

True, but I think they are hardly any different than most filter media and surface areas in the tank and don't deserve the bad rap they have. Most areas in the tank are aerobic and no different than bioballs. You may get anaerobic zones if you have a deep sand bed or rock pieces thick enough to have minimum flow in the middle, but I think those are the exception and not the rule. Very few of us are able to reduce nitrate without some sort of external removal method, whether that is through water changes, carbon dosing, or some form of chemical nitrate reduction.

I don't think bioballs are necessary components for reef tank success by any means, but as I said above, I hardly think they warrant the bad rap they have.

 

[scubasteve06]

As long as the owner of the said bio balls cleans them thoroughly at least once a week then they won't trap detritus and accumulate crud that would contribute to excess nutrient levels. Unfortuneatly no one wants to clean them that often because they are a mess to take out and clean. It's much easier to clean your sand bed and vacuum off crud and detritus and algae than taking out 200 bio balls and rinsing them in a bucket and then having to replace them. I think that's the main reaosn they have been phased out as there are easier ways to accomplish the same thing that they do and these ways are more efficient also.

 

[SDguy]

True, but I think they are hardly any different than most filter media and surface areas in the tank and don't deserve the bad rap they have. Most areas in the tank are aerobic and no different than bioballs. You may get anaerobic zones if you have a deep sand bed or rock pieces thick enough to have minimum flow in the middle, but I think those are the exception and not the rule. Very few of us are able to reduce nitrate without some sort of external removal method, whether that is through water changes, carbon dosing, or some form of chemical nitrate reduction.

I don't think bioballs are necessary components for reef tank success by any means, but as I said above, I hardly think they warrant the bad rap they have.

Live rock is very good at housing anaerobic bacteria, due to it's structure within...you don't need piles of it. Many people use live rock as a fully functional aerobic and anaerobic area for filtration.

I'm not sure I get your point here.... the aerobic bacteria on bioballs produce nitrate as a final product... what are you disagreeing with?

 

[Lina5910]

Bio balls are very efficient in coverting ammonia to nitrate and that's it. The problem is you are stuck with the nitrate with no place for it to go except accumulate in your system. What is your bio load like? IME carbon dosing is for people that have a NO3 or PO4 problem which you seem to not have. I will tell you this though, when I started vodka/vinegar dosing almost 3 weeks ago my hair algae was taking over my coraline algae. Now almost 3 weeks into my carbon dosing the hair algae is gone. The vodka alone didn't do it because the first 5 days with vodka only it did nothing. As soon as I added vinegar to the mix it really helped. You could try starting out with very small doses. I'd go with 1/2 the recommended dose the whole time since you have no measurable nitrates or phosphates. I am going to link you to two great articles that you should read before putting anything carbon related in your tank.http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100910?sub_id=DszPBGS23GCmQ#pg61

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

great articles. thanks you.

Are you dosing vodka/ vinegar only or are you also dosing sugar? If you also dose sugar, do you use table sugar?

The coral magazine suggests to mix 225 ml vodka, 25 ml vinegar and 1 tbs sugar. Is this how you mix it? If you dont use sugar, how do you prepare you mixture?

 

[lhcorals]

If you have the Bio-balls in a area with good flow there is no problem with destritus. I am running Bio-balls and live rock in a designated tank that has good flo and see no difference in the destritus build up. I am running a system of 600+ gallons ( 9 different tanks on the same system ). The biggest tank being a 265 gallon reef. I for one tried the Vodka dosing and felt like it was helping, until i started losing some color in the corals. Then i lost a couple colonies. I went back to the old fashion way of lowering the nitrates, a lot of water changes. I did 2 water change a week for a month and it did the job. Diont forget a little nitrates is not a bad thing, just dont let them climb to a point to where its a problem. Oh i also started at half the recommended dosage with the vodka.

 

[scubasteve06]

great articles. thanks you.

Are you dosing vodka/ vinegar only or are you also dosing sugar? If you also dose sugar, do you use table sugar?

The coral magazine suggests to mix 225 ml vodka, 25 ml vinegar and 1 tbs sugar. Is this how you mix it? If you dont use sugar, how do you prepare you mixture?

I only dose vodka/vinegar. I also dose MicroBacter 7 for more diversity among the bacterial strains. Table sugar isn't what you would use if you wanted to. Grape sugar is one example of what you would use for glucose in the VSV mixture. I've heard that the sugar can cause RTN in SPS, but I don't know first hand personally if it does or not.

The mix that Mr. Camp suggests is just a guideline. When I first started as I said I only used vodka. Then I added in vinegar as he said in the article. After hearing other's mixtures I used more vinegar and then a week later added more. My mixture as it sits now is 250ml's of vodka (ethanol) and 300ml's of vinegar(acetic acid). I'd start small with say 250ml's of vodka and 50ml's of vinegar and see how that does for a week. Then after that week I'd say you could safely add another 50-100ml's of vinegar and so on for the next weeks. I have found a great balance with the 250ml's of vodka and 300ml's of vinegar. Each system's requirements will be different so start slow and slowly work up and see what you need.

 

[JasonBJones]

Live rock is very good at housing anaerobic bacteria, due to it's structure within...you don't need piles of it. Many people use live rock as a fully functional aerobic and anaerobic area for filtration.

I'm not sure I get your point here.... the aerobic bacteria on bioballs produce nitrate as a final product... what are you disagreeing with?

I am not disagreeing with you. The final product of aerobic bacteria on bioballs is nitrate, no doubt about it. But I guess I disagree that they are that terrible. The surface area of live rock, glass sand, etc in the tank that house only aerobic bacteria in the tank is at least great as any bioballs, I would think.

Bioballs cannot produce nitrate out of thin air, they use the nitrogen in the water. Regardless of whether that nitrogen is converted to nitrate by aerobic bacteria in the tank or on the bioballs, it will be converted. It is then free to be converted by the anaerobic zones. I don't think bioballs would be a problem unless there was some sort of limiting factor in the tank for aerobic bacteria to grow. The aerobic bacteria population will be proportionate to the food source. So unless there is some sort of limiting factor for aerobic bacteria to grow in other areas in the tank, adding bio balls should not increase the overall population of bacteria in the tank. I think they are effectively useless for this reason, but I don't think they are the source of all evil as they are made out to be.

Now, their ability to trap detritus is a different story.

 

[JasonBJones]

Lina, sorry to take this thread on a side route.

I also dose vodka and I think it would probably be beneficial in your system to reduce the nutrients feeding the algae. Make sure you have a sufficiently sized skimmer and do your homework on dosing quantities. As with all things in reef tanks, start out slow.

 

[SDguy]

They simply provide an inert place for bacteria to grow, just like any other medium in a tank- live rock, sand, etc...

I was simply clarifying this statement, because it's wrong... they are not the same as live rock or sand. I see no mention of "evil" here though...

 

[scubasteve06]

Sand and live rock are able to take nitrate one step further and pretty much eliminate it all together by converting nitrate into nitrogen gas that then escapes by sufficient gas exchange at the surface of the water. Live rock and sand are able to house denitrifying bacteria and thus the reason they are chosen over bio balls. Bio balls can't have this anaerobic section since there is no oxygen poor zone where the bio balls are since water is continuously rushing over them. Live rock and sand are able to do this because the lower regions of the sand have no water flow and the bottom of the live rock where it is placed on the sand or in it will have no water flow. This is why bio balls are ineffective and live rock and sand are effective.

 

[lhcorals]

Sand and live rock are able to take nitrate one step further and pretty much eliminate it all together by converting nitrate into nitrogen gas that then escapes by sufficient gas exchange at the surface of the water. Live rock and sand are able to house denitrifying bacteria and thus the reason they are chosen over bio balls. Bio balls can't have this anaerobic section since there is no oxygen poor zone where the bio balls are since water is continuously rushing over them. Live rock and sand are able to do this because the lower regions of the sand have no water flow and the bottom of the live rock where it is placed on the sand or in it will have no water flow. This is why bio balls are ineffective and live rock and sand are effective.

I know of a person who has a 1200 ( up fpr 6 years ) and a 900 ( up for 3 years ) and he ONLY uses bio balls. Both are reef tanks that are unbelievable. He has no issues with nitrates issues at all. So i think one of the biggest issues with nitrates or Phosphates is we get lazy with our water changes and the upkeep of our tanks.