What caused my RTN

[swnoob]

For the last several months I've converted my 6 year old tank to sps dominant. After noticing very little growth in those months I've decided to try a few additives with some good and also some bad results.

A couple weeks ago i decided to start dosing the following based on other members having good results and my corals starting to lighten up.

AcroPower 5ml daily
ReefRoids 1 tsp daily

I did see a slight increase in polyp extension during the day.

Being the impatient person i am i looked for something better. I came across what they call biggles juice. Thought i would give that try since i did have a habit of running too much carbon in the past. Maybe i depleted some element and replenish and lugols would help.

I started dosing the following this week.
Acropower 5 ml daily
ReefRoids 1 tsp daily (diluted in 1 cup of water and fed with squirt feeder)
Replenish 1 ml daily
Lugols 1 drop daily
KoralColor .5 ml daily

Everything was fine the first night. The second night i dosed the same but noticed the next morning several inverts died. A few nasarius snails and lots of dead copepods floating around. Much more than normal. My only anemone was deflated most of the day and i lost a very nice piece of sps. All other 80+ frags were doing fine.

Fast forward to tonight, i dosed the same. Fed the reefroids after lights outs. I usually turn off all pumps for 30 minutes when i feed. I checked on the corals after the 30 minutes and noticed one of the smooth acros decided to RTN. I have 3 frags of the same coral and only one was affected. Everything else is doing fine.

The only other change i made to the tank is i decided to add talk to my top off to try and increase my ph. It usually runs as low as 7.5-8.1 I turned off my doser while i fine tuned the amount of kalk i put in my top off. I did have my alk climb to 8.6 over a 3 day period when i usually keep it at 7.5 I did see one of my acros show burnt tips but everything else looked fine.

I've read that a sign of overdosing on Lugols are dead inverts. Can it be the combination of all the additives caused an overdose?

Not sure if this matters but i was dosing 10 ml of vodka daily to decrease my nitrates. I stopped a few weeks ago since they are now very low.

Tank info
120 gallon
40 gallon sump
alpha200 skimmer
TLF 550 running 1.5 cups of Rowaphos
ATI Powermodule 8 bulb

Cal 440
Alk 7.5
Mg 1500
Nitrate .25
Phosphate .03

I will stop dosing for now and feed the fish more often. Thought about running a couple of cups of carbon and see if that would help but now i'm scared to try anything fearing it amy cause more damage. Too much money invested in these last few months to have it go to waste.

I do realize all tanks react differently but any thoughts on how i should proceed or what is causing my RTN?

Thanks

 

[thirst]

If you notice things dying, I would probably stop dosing too many things, and do a water change ASAP.

 

[mattgumaer]

I'm no expert (far from it) but, maybe:

1) iodine overdose- I think Lugol's dose is suggested as 1 drop per 25 gallons per week; at one a day, your exceeding that; it may be fine but I don't see any test results for the level;

2) alk swing; looks like your typical alk is 7.5 and went up to 8.6; even if both numbers, if steady, are fine, acros might not like the rapid change- seems unlikely this would have killed a bunch of inverts though;

3) vodka dosing (I know you stopped a couple of weeks ago); I think there is at least some consensus that alk should be kept in the 7.0 to 8.0 range when vodka dosing- again, seems unlikely this would kill inverts;

Because of the inverts, I would think iodine is the most likely culprit. Dead inverts could also have caused an ammonia/nitrite spike doing further damage. I started dosing Lugol's myself not too long ago and I think I have seen positive results (more with soft coral than sps though). I dose 6 drops once a week into a 180 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump (I figure I have about 180 gallons of total water after deducting for rock and sand). I use the Salifert Iodine test kit to test levels. Many (including Randy Holmes Farley) are skeptical of the benefit of dosing iodine.

You've got so many things changing so quickly, at the end of the day, it's hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd stop dosing everything other than whatever you use to keep alk/calc stable and do a series of whatever changes every second or third day for 2 or 3 weeks. If you then feel the need to start dosing, I would add one thing at a time and start slow.

What's your lighting? Did you change/supplement it when you started the switch to sps? Maybe you're slow growth has nothing to do with water parameters. Also, what's your water change schedule? This is a good way to reduce contaminants and replenish elements being depleted in the tank.

Matt

 

[rovster]

Did you stop vodka cold turkey? That could be bad depending on size of tank. Will really screw with your biological filter and can certainly spike levels enough to affect inverts. Also sounds like you have a lot going on. Maybe pulling back on all the additives and get back to basics for a while is a good idea.

 

[swnoob]

Lost another frag overnight

before
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after
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[swnoob]

I'm no expert (far from it) but, maybe:

1) iodine overdose- I think Lugol's dose is suggested as 1 drop per 25 gallons per week; at one a day, your exceeding that; it may be fine but I don't see any test results for the level;

I started dosing Lugols this week for a total of 4 drops. Still under the recommended dose of 1 drop per 25 gallons you mentioned.

2) alk swing; looks like your typical alk is 7.5 and went up to 8.6; even if both numbers, if steady, are fine, acros might not like the rapid change- seems unlikely this would have killed a bunch of inverts though;

I've had this type of Alk swing in the past when I do large water changes with no ill affects. An increase of 7.5 to 8.6 over a 3 day period doesn't seem like much. Maybe everything is much more sensitive because of the low nutrient levels?

3) vodka dosing (I know you stopped a couple of weeks ago); I think there is at least some consensus that alk should be kept in the 7.0 to 8.0 range when vodka dosing- again, seems unlikely this would kill inverts;

Because of the inverts, I would think iodine is the most likely culprit. Dead inverts could also have caused an ammonia/nitrite spike doing further damage. I started dosing Lugol's myself not too long ago and I think I have seen positive results (more with soft coral than sps though). I dose 6 drops once a week into a 180 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump (I figure I have about 180 gallons of total water after deducting for rock and sand). I use the Salifert Iodine test kit to test levels. Many (including Randy Holmes Farley) are skeptical of the benefit of dosing iodine.

I agree that the iodine may be the cause if Replenish and KoraColor also have iodine in them.

You've got so many things changing so quickly, at the end of the day, it's hard to say for sure. Personally, I'd stop dosing everything other than whatever you use to keep alk/calc stable and do a series of whatever changes every second or third day for 2 or 3 weeks. If you then feel the need to start dosing, I would add one thing at a time and start slow.

I change out 20 gallons weekly but thought about doing smaller changes daily since the IO salt has high alk. I'm definitely not dosing anything til it settles.

What's your lighting? Did you change/supplement it when you started the switch to sps? Maybe you're slow growth has nothing to do with water parameters. Also, what's your water change schedule? This is a good way to reduce contaminants and replenish elements being depleted in the tank.

I run a ATI Powermodule 8x54. They run 11:00-9:00 with an hour or dimming at each end. I did lower the light a couple of inches a few weeks ago because my bulbs are now 6 months old. They are approximately 18 inches away from the coral that died. I have several coral that are 6 inches closer and they are doing just fine.

Matt

Did you stop vodka cold turkey? That could be bad depending on size of tank. Will really screw with your biological filter and can certainly spike levels enough to affect inverts. Also sounds like you have a lot going on. Maybe pulling back on all the additives and get back to basics for a while is a good idea.

Yes. I stopped cold turkey because my nutrients were almost undetectable

 

[mattgumaer]

Hard to believe a total of 4 drops of Lugol's would cause that many problems but hard to know I suppose without knowing the levels pre-dosing (particularly if you're dosing other things that contain some form of iodine Replenish and KoraColar- maybe the straw that broke the camel's back).

7.5 to 8.6 seems like a pretty big swing to me but, my water change water also has much higher alk than my tank normally runs (I use reef crystals).

20 Gallons weekly for water changes seems great. I wouldn't think you should have to do a lot (maybe not any) trace supplementation with that volume of water changes.

I'm not a t-5 guy but light seems more than adequate to grow basically anything.

Ultimately, I think you probably had an iodine problem, that triggered a small die-off that triggered other problems. The other alternative would seem to be a collection of changes, all at about the same time, being too much for sensitive sps.

I dose vodka but I don't know much about stopping it, cold turkey or otherwise. I also don't dose a lot though.

Matt

 

[kevin_e]

Just way too much going on to pinpoint a issue. It could be a combination of a lot of things. What killed your snails, may not have killed your coral. I would just go back to what you were dong prior (KISS method). You mentioned growth was slow, but that's the SPS game. You almost have to take weekly comparative pictures to compare, and even that may be too frequent to notice changes.

 

[Flagg37]

Just way too much going on to pinpoint a issue. It could be a combination of a lot of things. What killed your snails, may not have killed your coral. I would just go back to what you were dong prior (KISS method). You mentioned growth was slow, but that's the SPS game. You almost have to take weekly comparative pictures to compare, and even that may be too frequent to notice changes.

I agree. If you're not a patient person this may not be the hobby for you. The key to sps is stability. Any changes you choose to make to encourage growth should be done slowly.

 

[swnoob]

Hard to believe a total of 4 drops of Lugol's would cause that many problems but hard to know I suppose without knowing the levels pre-dosing (particularly if you're dosing other things that contain some form of iodine Replenish and KoraColar- maybe the straw that broke the camel's back).

7.5 to 8.6 seems like a pretty big swing to me but, my water change water also has much higher alk than my tank normally runs (I use reef crystals).

20 Gallons weekly for water changes seems great. I wouldn't think you should have to do a lot (maybe not any) trace supplementation with that volume of water changes.

I'm not a t-5 guy but light seems more than adequate to grow basically anything.


Ultimately, I think you probably had an iodine problem, that triggered a small die-off that triggered other problems. The other alternative would seem to be a collection of changes, all at about the same time, being too much for sensitive sps.

I dose vodka but I don't know much about stopping it, cold turkey or otherwise. I also don't dose a lot though.

Matt

I'm also starting to think it was a bit of everything that caused the RTN.

I have accidently raised my alk to 9 within a couple days with no issues. I dosed Lugols in the past when I had a ton of zoas.

Is it possible that the reefroids was too concentrated and sat on the coral too long? I do turn off my pumps for 30 minutes when I target feed. I noticed one coral rtn'ed right after I fed.

One week ago
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after target feeding
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/bleekerbros/27477632300/in/datetaken-public/" title="IMG_9878"><img src="https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7473/27477632300_ed31772124_z.jpg" width="640" height="427" alt="IMG_9878"></a></script>

Just way too much going on to pinpoint a issue. It could be a combination of a lot of things. What killed your snails, may not have killed your coral. I would just go back to what you were dong prior (KISS method). You mentioned growth was slow, but that's the SPS game. You almost have to take weekly comparative pictures to compare, and even that may be too frequent to notice changes.

I do realize sps requires a lot of patience and that's something I do not have any of except when it comes to my tank. I'm trying to document as much as possible by taking pictures the first weekend of every month. the first few months I had almost no growth. Once I dropped my nutrients I did get slightly better. Some corals have grown at all in 5 months.

I agree. If you're not a patient person this may not be the hobby for you. The key to sps is stability. Any changes you choose to make to encourage growth should be done slowly.

I agree. The dosing schedule I went with is half what others were having success with but again not all tanks are equal. I have to find that sweet spot for my tank killing some sps in the process.

 

[slin1977]

@swnoob- I think you will find that salinity is the cause of your problem.
Would be worth checking that parameter.

 

[swnoob]

@swnoob- I think you will find that salinity is the cause of your problem.
Would be worth checking that parameter.

I checked my current reading and it's 1.025-1.026 using a VeeGee refractometer recently calibrated with RO water. Most say to use salinity calibration fluid but I've compared my calibration after using the fluid and RO and both read what they should be.

 

[slin1977]

Checked for broken impeller shafts on pumps?

 

[swnoob]

Checked for broken impeller shafts on pumps?

Everything working fine. I check and give all pumps a vinegar bath every 6 months. Nothing else in the tank that can rust. I haven't checked for stray voltage. Will stray voltage if minimal stun growth but keep coral alive?

I did one time misplace a utility knife blade when cleaning the glass. I found it a couple weeks later.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/bleekerbros/27657292242/in/datetaken-public/" title="IMG_2201"><img src="https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7692/27657292242_d7d46bc5c8_k.jpg" width="1536" height="2048" alt="IMG_2201"></a></script>

Careful where you set your powerheads. haha

 

[Myka]

Yes. I stopped cold turkey because my nutrients were almost undetectable

I've had this type of Alk swing in the past when I do large water changes with no ill affects. An increase of 7.5 to 8.6 over a 3 day period doesn't seem like much. Maybe everything is much more sensitive because of the low nutrient levels?

I run a ATI Powermodule 8x54. They run 11:00-9:00 with an hour or dimming at each end. I did lower the light a couple of inches a few weeks ago because my bulbs are now 6 months old. They are approximately 18 inches away from the coral that died. I have several coral that are 6 inches closer and they are doing just fine.

There are some bad things going on here. As mentioned already, cutting out vodka dosing cold turkey can be very detrimental. The low nutrients do make the corals more sensitive to alk swing, and keep in mind that it takes about 2-3 weeks to see the results of an alk swing. These two issues together are enough to wipe out an SPS collection.

Also, you're running all bulbs for 10 hours with 2 hours of dimming? I think you're probably giving them too much light depending on bulb combo. Your photos won't load for me, but I'd like to see them to confirm that the corals are getting too much light. I'd change the photoperiod to something more typical like channel 1 on for 12 hours, and channel 2 on for 6-8 hours. I find often that cutting light back when there are tank issues (especially alk issues or low nutrients) really helps.

One last thing for long-term success - the calcium and magnesium levels in your tank don't balance with the alkalinity level. If you want to keep alkalinity at 7.5 dKH balanced calcium is about 415 ppm and magnesium should be targeted at about 1240(natural seawater)-1300 ppm.

One more last thing... :lol: 1 tsp of Reef Roids seems like A LOT of food to be putting into the tank daily especially when you just have little frags, and I think this is going to bite you in the rear in short time, especially since you're also adding aminos. The dosing instructions on the Reef Roids container I think are a reason why many people have trouble using it because it says 1 tsp per 100 gallons volume, but it doesn't say anything about how often you should do this. I use Reef Chili and it comes with a little scoop that is almost exactly twice the size of a red Salifert scoop (I measured) and I add 3 scoops of Reef Chili every evening. Last night was the first night that I started using 1 scoop of Reef Roids to replace one 1 scoop of Reef Chili and I'm interested to see if I find any difference. The display volume of my reef is 69 gallons gross, so you have 1.7 times my volume, but I'm feeding about 0.1 grams per day, and you're feeding about 1.9 grams per day (yes I just weighed the volumes), so you're feeding 19 times the weight that I am.

 

[swnoob]

There are some bad things going on here. As mentioned already, cutting out vodka dosing cold turkey can be very detrimental. The low nutrients do make the corals more sensitive to alk swing, and keep in mind that it takes about 2-3 weeks to see the results of an alk swing. These two issues together are enough to wipe out an SPS collection.

Also, you're running all bulbs for 10 hours with 2 hours of dimming? I think you're probably giving them too much light depending on bulb combo. Your photos won't load for me, but I'd like to see them to confirm that the corals are getting too much light. I'd change the photoperiod to something more typical like channel 1 on for 12 hours, and channel 2 on for 6-8 hours. I find often that cutting light back when there are tank issues (especially alk issues or low nutrients) really helps.

One last thing for long-term success - the calcium and magnesium levels in your tank don't balance with the alkalinity level. If you want to keep alkalinity at 7.5 dKH balanced calcium is about 415 ppm and magnesium should be targeted at about 1240(natural seawater)-1300 ppm.

One more last thing... :lol: 1 tsp of Reef Roids seems like A LOT of food to be putting into the tank daily especially when you just have little frags, and I think this is going to bite you in the rear in short time, especially since you're also adding aminos. The dosing instructions on the Reef Roids container I think are a reason why many people have trouble using it because it says 1 tsp per 100 gallons volume, but it doesn't say anything about how often you should do this. I use Reef Chili and it comes with a little scoop that is almost exactly twice the size of a red Salifert scoop (I measured) and I add 3 scoops of Reef Chili every evening. Last night was the first night that I started using 1 scoop of Reef Roids to replace one 1 scoop of Reef Chili and I'm interested to see if I find any difference. The display volume of my reef is 69 gallons gross, so you have 1.7 times my volume, but I'm feeding about 0.1 grams per day, and you're feeding about 1.9 grams per day (yes I just weighed the volumes), so you're feeding 19 times the weight that I am.

I think my lighting scheulde is okay. A couple of weeks ago I purchased 15 frags from a local reefer and they are doing good. Some have been coloring quite nicely in those 2 weeks. I will change to a 2 hour dimming schedule at each end until all things settle down.

I've been measuring all for several months now at i still get a reading of 1500+ I don't dose magnesium so i don't see how thats possible. Most likely a bad Red Sea test kit. Will pick a Salifert Mg test to compare.

I agree that it seems like a lot of food but my phosphates and nitrates have risen much since i started dosing.

Nitrates have increased from .25 to 1
Phosphates have increased from .03 to .08

Exhausted DI resin and Rowaphos may also be the cause. Seems like my system has kept up with all the food.

 

[Acromaniac]

I highly doubt it's an iodine overdose. I dose 1 drop of lugols per day in a 50gal and never had a problem.

I'm guessing it's a phosphate issue, you say it's undetectable, but that last shot 1 week apart, the frag plug was clean, a week later it's covered in hair algae which means you don't have 0 p04, I would say it's a p04 swing and it's probably just not registering on your test kit because the algae is consuming it.

 

[swnoob]

I highly doubt it's an iodine overdose. I dose 1 drop of lugols per day in a 50gal and never had a problem.

I'm guessing it's a phosphate issue, you say it's undetectable, but that last shot 1 week apart, the frag plug was clean, a week later it's covered in hair algae which means you don't have 0 p04, I would say it's a p04 swing and it's probably just not registering on your test kit because the algae is consuming it.

I would attribute the green hair algae to phosphates the actual plug is leaching into the water. I have no green hair algae on my rock structures. I do have some what I believe is red turf algae but it has remained the same for years. No die off at all or any additional algae growth.


What would explain the inverts dying? There has been no temperature swings, no salinity swings just the slight alk swing that has happened to me several times in the past with large water changes with IO.

Hopefully someone who has tried biggles juice can chime in. I've follows a few threads regarding biggles juice and most are dosing much more than I tried. Would dosing everything within minutes right at my return have a bad affect?

 

[DivingTheWorld]

I usually turn off all pumps for 30 minutes when i feed. I checked on the corals after the 30 minutes and noticed one of the smooth acros decided to RTN.

I've always wondered about this one. It seems many people turn off pumps during feeding. IMO the ocean never stops moving, so I keep my Vortechs on reef crest 24/7. I wonder with the amount of food you're putting in the tank, with little to no water movement, you're seeing localized spikes of phosphate/nitrate?

 

[swnoob]

I've always wondered about this one. It seems many people turn off pumps during feeding. IMO the ocean never stops moving, so I keep my Vortechs on reef crest 24/7. I wonder with the amount of food you're putting in the tank, with little to no water movement, you're seeing localized spikes of phosphate/nitrate?

Reef Roids instructions do state for optimum results to turn off all circulation and target feed but do not say how long they should stay off. I figured 30 minutes was max that I am comfortable with at the time. They also state to disperse 1 tsp in tank water but don't say how much water. In the next sentence they say "Otherwise just disperse into tank"

I really wish they would be more detailed. You'd figure they put a lot of R&D into the ingredients they would do the same as to how it would best used to feed our corals.

Started feeding the roids again since everything looks settled and I have more polyp extension than in the past. I think they are hungry. I now turn off skimmer and return pump but leave all mp40's running.