What Now?? %$&#

[Basman346]

Set up a 55 gallon QT with a 20 gallon sump.
25 pounds of live rock in the tank and 5 pounds of rubble in the sump.
Even put pods in the sump.

Here's what I did.

Cured some bone dry live rock for over a month.
Used the Tank Transfer method on several fish in two groups so as not to add too many fish to the QT and over stress with too much bio load.

Fish in the QT currently:
Yellow Tang
Flame Angel
Yellow Eye Kole Tang
Melenurus Wrasse
Purple Fire Fish
Onyx Clown
Green Mandarin

Everything was going great for about 3 weeks and then BAM....yesterday yellow tang starts flashing on the rocks and breathing heavy. ICH.....:mad2:

Here is my question.

Can I use Cupramine on the list of fish above? I don't want to go through another tank transfer process as I only have two 10 gallon tanks and I have too many fish for that small of a tank. Also would like to keep them in the 55 as I have the cured rock as a biofilter.

Will the copper kill the rock?

How about the mandy? Will the copper kill it??

Never used copper before.

Thanks

 

[HumbleFish]

IMO, copper is not a good option in your situation. The Mandy will not handle it well and it will most certainly kill his food (the pods). Flames also can be sensitive to copper. And if that wasn't reason enough, all that LR will absorb some of the copper; making it difficult to maintain a stable level.

Before you push the panic button... are you sure this is Ich? Have you seen white spots? Is the YT targeting his gills on the rocks? It's possible this is Flukes (or something else). If you haven't already, I would treat the QT w/Prazipro.

 

[sleepydoc]

Per seachem, cupramine will not affect the biofilter. So I'm confused - are your fish are in QT? Did you do TT on all the fish?

I'm no expert, but I've read of people using copper with mandarins successfully; try doing a search on it.

 

[Basman346]

IMO, copper is not a good option in your situation. The Mandy will not handle it well and it will most certainly kill his food (the pods). Flames also can be sensitive to copper. And if that wasn't reason enough, all that LR will absorb some of the copper; making it difficult to maintain a stable level.

Before you push the panic button... are you sure this is Ich? Have you seen white spots? Is the YT targeting his gills on the rocks? It's possible this is Flukes (or something else). If you haven't already, I would treat the QT w/Prazipro.

I can see the spots...I'm sure its ICH.....I just spent soooo much time setting up the QT and then doing the tank transfer method on 3 fish at a time and then to have this spring up again.....makes me want to just shut the whole tank down.

Thats why I'm asking about the cupramine....my thoughts were to just leave the whole group in the 55 and treat with cupramine. On June 16 my main DT will have been fallow for 10 weeks.

 

[HumbleFish]

I can see the spots...I'm sure its ICH.....I just spent soooo much time setting up the QT and then doing the tank transfer method on 3 fish at a time and then to have this spring up again.....makes me want to just shut the whole tank down.

Thats why I'm asking about the cupramine....my thoughts were to just leave the whole group in the 55 and treat with cupramine. On June 16 my main DT will have been fallow for 10 weeks.

If you choose to go w/Cupramine, I would remove all the LR and raise the copper very, very slowly. Like... take a week to get it up to 0.35. Watch the Mandy and Flame closely. Also, you are going to have to find something else for the Mandy to eat (mine ate frozen Nutramar Ova in QT).

Your only other options would be hypo (not a fan) or this (huge fan).

 

[Basman346]

I've been reading threads where Cupramine was added to DT (without inverts) and also added to QT with live rock.

I'm going to start with Cupramine tomorrow and add very slowly. Just can't bare to do the TT method again. I will post on the results.

I have no sand in the QT.

The Mandy is eating spirulina brine shrimp. literally darts to get it. So i think the mandy will do ok.

 

[jjk_reef00]

The rock will absorb some of the medication. So you have to monitor the levels and keep up with the absorption. I use the salifert test kit with cupramine because I think it is the easiest to read.

 

[Basman346]

The rock will absorb some of the medication. So you have to monitor the levels and keep up with the absorption. I use the salifert test kit with cupramine because I think it is the easiest to read.

thanks for the tip on absorption. I will monitor closely and try the salifert test kit.

 

[TankStudy]

Getting rid of every last spec of ich is sometimes, if not most, near impossible. Good water parameters, good water flow (little/no dead spots), healthy diet and a stress free environment can help the fish battle ich off by themselves.

You will find many posts with people saying that ich just went away and has never come back since in tanks that are many many years old.

Yellow tangs, IME, are very good at battling ich off by themselves. Tangs like the blue hippo on the other hand, usually require assistance.

Before jumping the gun on the lets treat everything, find out what maybe causing your yellow tang stress. You have to remember that ich can only attach to the body when the mucous/slimecoat produced by the fish becomes thin. Have you ever heard of why fisherman wash their hands with the lake water before grabbing fish? Thats to avoid removing too much of the fishes slimecoat making him susceptible to disease, especially after you've hooked him and stressed him out.

Unless your tang has a genetic disorder and produces little to no slime coat, I would look into this first.

-Check to see if your water is stable
-Check to see if you have sufficient water flow
-Check to see if you are feeding everything your tangs need

How big is your yellow tang and kole tang?

They can be simply be stressed if they are too large for a 55 gallon. No room to wiggle in.

 

[MrTuskfish]

LR can not only absorb CU, it can release it. Accurately testing Cu in a tank with LR or substrate is almost impossible. Ich can infect any fish; although a good slime coat makes it easier. Fish, like tangs, have a much thinner slime coat than bottom dwellers (like the mandarin) because they don't need it. Ich loves the gills and many fish have their gills full of ich, while looking "clean". Individual fish may seem to "fight off" ich at times; but some cycles of ich remain in the tank and suddenly re-appear. I've always felt (no proof) that if the pours of LR cal prevent almost no oxygen from reaching deep inside the LR, to allow anaerobic bacteria to culture, its probably capable of protecting some forms of ich from being reached by the copper too. Eliminating ich requires a 100% kill; nothing less will work. Not trying to be negative; but the chances of eliminating ich in your tank, the way you are thinking of doing it, are very, very poor.

 

[Basman346]

LR can not only absorb CU, it can release it. Accurately testing Cu in a tank with LR or substrate is almost impossible. Ich can infect any fish; although a good slime coat makes it easier. Fish, like tangs, have a much thinner slime coat than bottom dwellers (like the mandarin) because they don't need it. Ich loves the gills and many fish have their gills full of ich, while looking "clean". Individual fish may seem to "fight off" ich at times; but some cycles of ich remain in the tank and suddenly re-appear. I've always felt (no proof) that if the pours of LR cal prevent almost no oxygen from reaching deep inside the LR, to allow anaerobic bacteria to culture, its probably capable of protecting some forms of ich from being reached by the copper too. Eliminating ich requires a 100% kill; nothing less will work. Not trying to be negative; but the chances of eliminating ich in your tank, the way you are thinking of doing it, are very, very poor.


Thanks for the advice. I understand that the rock presents challenges. But, how then do you have 7 fish in a QT with cupramine and no live rock for nitrifying bacteria??

I don't have a seeded filter from my display tank which is running without fish currently. How do you manage the ammonia? Water changes? Which then means you have to add NSW with the appropriate level of cupramine already added to the NSW. Am I understanding this correctly?

I want the ICH gone and will never add another fish, coral, snail.....without QT first. I don't believe that ICH can be eliminated by simply maintaining good water quality. The parasite doesn't care about the water quality. It only cares that there is a fish to infect. To me it's a ticking time bomb for the tank if you simply hope that feeding and water quality will make this parasite go away.

I guess I take the live rock out and carefully monitor the CU levels.

I have measured since yesterday that the CU levels remain constant after testing 6 times over the last 24 hours.

 

[jjk_reef00]

If you measure daily you can do it with rock. I treated my 375 after a tank transfer failed. It may have been operator error but I only trust cupramine now. It took a while for my rocks to absorb enough cupramine and become 'saturated' to the point that levels were consistent.

 

[Basman346]

Reef 00, how quickly does the cupramine start to work? What is the lowest level of cupramine that is still effective against killing ick? How long should I treat for?

Actually I'm wondering if my siphon tubes that I used to make water changes were the culprit in getting Ich back into the qt tank. How do you effectively sterilize the siphon hoses? They never seem to completely dry out.

Thanks

 

[jjk_reef00]

It should work fairly quickly. I'm not sure about lowest level. I treated my DT with the recommended dose of 0.5 for approx 5 weeks. You can read about the lifecycle of ich in the stickies and determine how long you want to treat but I would go at least 4.

I strongly recommend getting an extra set of equipment for your qt. Nothing that touches my qt goes anyplace near my DT. I won't even go near the DT if I've had my hands in the QT.