White Spots that Dissapear

[Crystalyst]

Okay, so I had my clowns in the QT. They are juvie tank raised black ice's.

One day I saw them both on the bottom breathing rapidly. After tests, I saw ammonia was at a whopping 2.0+ and Nitrates were 1 (Despite just doing a water change earlier in the day!!)

Well, I panicked and threw them into my cycled DT for a few days and they started breathing normally again, except one just sat at the bottom and started breathing a bit heavily after a couple days. I also noticed some small black spots on the front of the white portion and white spots on the orange portion.

I assume it's ich...which is surprising because I didn't think that was an issue for tank raised fish and when I went to store they were the only fish in the tank. Well, I put them back in the QT with a 100% water change from my DT. I looked for the spots and they are completely gone!!

My salinity was a bit high overnight sitting at 1.03, so I did a water change this AM and now back to 1.025

Ammonia and Nitrites at 0 and nitrates somewhere <5ppm, pH between 7.8 and 8.

Assuming it's ich, but would the spots just go away like that? Grrr, first fish in first tank and already have the ich despite having a QT!!!!

I think I overfed in the QT which caused the spikes. I saw mysis shrimp stuck in filter and when I changed water I saw why ammonia was so high.

:headwalls:

Anyway, I have my cuties back in the QT and will be starting treatment again. Assuming that my DT is now screwed for 3 months while I make sure the ich dies?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses.

 

[Crystalyst]

Also the "sick" one is still breathing hard. Assuming it's a sign of the parasite? Reading up on Ich stuff now, just trying to get some direction as it's a sea of info out there and this may not even be ich.

 

[Bubbason]

I'm no expert, but I've heard / read lots about (mainly) Tangs with Ich. I've not heard of a clown with Ich.

Ich is a parasite which attaches to the skin. In a healthy fish, with good immunity, the Ich won't generally bother the fish. If the fish becomes stressed, then the parasite can cause problems.

If the white spots are indeed Ich, you can feed your fish with a Garlic supplement, which will help them fight off the Ich. The Ich will drop off into the substrate and, if the fish is healthy, won't re-attach. If the fish is unhealthy, the Ich will re-attach and the cycle begins again.

Are the clowns hosting with anything? Hosting is genetically coded into Clowns, so generally it's instinctive for them to host. On occasion, they can get little black spots from trying to host with something which is stinging them. For some reason they appear immune to the sting so it's doesn't stop them

 

[trembz]

Garlic won't do anything

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[Bubbason]

Not sure I understand trembz.

If 'Garlic doesn't do anything' then why are there several forum topics which discuss the use of Hypersalinity, Garlic feeding etc to help build fish immunity and therefore with Ich?

Also, why would manufactures of fish food impregnate them with Garlic, only to achieve nothing?

 

[trembz]

There's also just as many threads telling you that garlic is a myth and saying prolonged use cab cause liver damage..
I've used garlic before thinking it would help eradicate ich, in my case it didn't help, garlic may entice a fish to eat and eating alone can help boost a fish immune system.
You'd have better luck soaking the food in selcon in my opinion.

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[Bubbason]

As Ich is a parasite, you won't eradicate it - you can only cycle it out of the aquarium imo.

It's always good to hear others opinions, but I did look into this myself (not that I had fish with Ich, I was more interested in what the views are/were). I came across an article which discusses it in more depth: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/


Whilst it's by no means a proven fact that Garlic cures disease, the control group study performed does make some fairly significant points which suggest that, fish treated with Garlic show a higher immunoresponse ergo are able to naturally fight off the illness.

[Extract]
Garlic has been studied for its effectiveness against a bacterial infection of fish (Colorni et al, 1998). One hundred and sixty sea bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) were intentionally infected with Mycobacterium marinum via injection with cultured cells. The study's participants also kept a positive control group of another 40 specimens, which they held in conditions similar to, but separate from, the infected fish, but injected them only with saline. All of these fish were then held and monitored to watch the disease's progression. After nine weeks, the infected fish showed clinical signs of infection upon dissection and examination. At this point, the infected fish were broken up into four smaller groups of 40 each: a negative control group which received no treatment, an experimental group that received antibiotic (streptomycin) injections, a second experimental group that received garlic extract injections, and a third experimental group that received injections of both the antibiotic and garlic extract. All fish were treated for an additional 12 weeks. During this time, sample fish were selected and dissected to monitor the disease's progression or recession.

The interesting revelation that came from this study is that it revealed a statistically significant stronger immune response in the fish given only garlic versus the fish given antibiotics, antibiotics and garlic, or the untreated control group. Part of this apparent anomaly is that antibiotics also have an immunosuppressive effect. In layman's terms, while they work to kill bacteria, they also don't permit the body to fight as hard as normal against the infection. But, the fact that the fish treated with garlic showed a stronger immune response than the untreated control group lead the study authors to suggest that "allicin treatment seems to have an enhancing effect on antibody activity when compared with all other groups."
[End Extract]

Again, imo, because you can only cycle out Ich the improved immuno-responsiveness (if treated with Garlic) can help the fish suppress the effects of Ich whilst it cycles itself out.

 

[Crystalyst]

Well, my little guy died and i'm heartbroken...although doubt as much as his little buddy left behind. Just ordered an other black ice online. I don't understand, I saw 0 visible signs besides the temporary white. I don't know what happened. The other seems fine. They both were running around in the tank when I saw them at store but once in QT tank the one that died just did very poorly and refused to eat and had trouble breathing after a couple days. I don't know what I did wrong. I feel horrible.

 

[Bubbason]

Sorry to hear your bad news The only thing worse than losing a tank mate, is not knowing why.
Losing a tank buddy doesn't necessarily mean you did something wrong.

You say in your first post, this was your first fish, in your first tank?
How long has the tank been cycling?
Did you pick up the fish locally, or was it bought mail order?
How did you introduce the fish into the tank, dripping?
The fish that survived, is it showing any signs of stress or illness?

If you can post the results of a water test, that may help find out if/where the problem is.

 

[Crystalyst]

Thanks for response. All my readings are at 0 in cycled DT. I kept these guys in a QT until I caught an ammonia spike in which i moved to DT in a hurry because I panicked. (Poor decision probably added to the stress).

I think I overfed the fish which caused ammonia spike (2 ppm), then quick switch to DT, then back to QT cause too much stress that kept the poor little guy from having the immunity needed to fight the parasite.

I bought fish locally who looked great and was swimming around happily, so once in my QT and refusing to eat for an entire week, I figure something was up.

Also the poop was red despite them not eating any red food. I think they had a parasite that just started showing signs. The fist had just gotten to the store on Wed so may not have had time to show sign of parasite until getting some stress from moving. idk.

 

[Bubbason]

ok, there's 2 things which come to mind:

Your QT tank needs to have cycled in the same way that your DT has. Without any tank mates in QT there is no bio-load, which is needed for Nitrifying bacteria to grow. It's the nitrifying bacteria which convert amonia to nitrite, to nitrate etc.

Is it possible that, adding the new fish (or bio-load) to your QT tank kick started the cycling process? I say this because, during the first stage of cycling an Amonia spike is common.

The second thing is, there's an opinion that Clowns don't travel very well. If indeed true, then it's possible that the clown arriving at your LFS, then being moved to your QT tank (Amonia) then into your DT was possibly more than he could cope with. There's a good article on catching clownfish which is definately worth a read here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372952

Either way, stability is key to keeping any marine/reef aquaria and sudden changes to water quality, environment, lighting etc will stress the tank. Ich is simply one parasite which attaches to stressed fish (perhaps with lowered immunity) to lay it's eggs.

In past, I've heard of people using Seachem Prime to quickly stabilise a tank which has spiked although, in your case, I would suggest it's better to get to the root cause of the spike rather than dose anything to fix it. With that said, if you've already ordered a replacement it may be wise to keep a bottle handy just in case.

 

[Crystalyst]

I'm using the temporary QT. I also use 50% water changes every other water change from my cycled DT to help add bacteria.

Yah that's not a bad idea to add the seachem prime to help out. I still have no clue which parasite as neither fish have any visible signs of anything except heavy breathing and what seems like reddish poop (could be from the flakes I occasionally fed which i never saw them actually eat

Actually, the one thing I could see with both is some discoloration of the white on their face and even slightly other bodies. Looks almost like bruising.

 

[Crystalyst]

Just tested params...after a 50% water change about 12 hours ago, with a 50% change 36 hours ago and 100% change 4-5 days ago, my ammonia is 2ppm and nitrates around 1ppm

I guess i killed my fish because I cant keep water params and thus stressed them to death. I don't understand, lots of water changes and following instructions for setting up a temporary QT and still failing. Really getting frustrated...have my guy in a 5 gal bucket with 50% fresh ro/di and 50% from cycled DT with all 0 readings and <5ppm nitrates. Will deal with when I get back home.

 

[Bruce51]

If it is ich you contaminated your DT when you put the fish in there. TTM and leave DT fallow for 72+ days. And Don't use water from DT.

 

[Crystalyst]

Yah, I heard 2 months for it. That's why i'm trying to figure out what it really is. Keep reading articles and such for it and looking at (horrific) google images and still am clueless as ever. A bit discouraging when even veteran reefers can't tell the difference.

Yah, I suppose my DT water is now ruined.

I bought a new sponge and filter for my QT. I am going to let them soak and get all gross in my DT and then add to QT. Hopefully that will have enough bacteria and such to keep this horrific ammonia and nitrite spike from happening again...even my DT didn't have these spikes...then again didn't have live fish just a dead shrimp. (Least I know my API test kits working great)

 

[Bubbason]

after a 50% water change about 12 hours ago, with a 50% change 36 hours ago and 100% change 4-5 days ago,

That totals 200% water change, which may be too much (?) Just a thought, after making up some FSW, did you test that before putting it into your tank?

 

[Crystalyst]

I mean, I use RODI water and just test for salinity.

I gave up and threw the fish in the DT until the quarantine someone cycles. I'm ****ed anyway if I have the ich. I don't know what to do. I over water change or then ammonia spikes. I feel as if it's a lose/lose...I followed all the instructions to the T on setting up a QT...just gonna hope my little guy lives (He's been in DT now for a day and has no signs of ich) He's sitting in corner looking somewhat normal except not eating at all. He did move to the complete opposite side of the tank. His white front band looks worn out at the top. Just going to let it play out because atm it appears I can either let him fight it off in the DT if there even is anything or poison him in my QT. Once the QT cycles and have good bacteria to keep from ammonia/nitrite spikes, then I will give him the full medical attention and let my DT sit for 2 months fishless.

Still...not sure what's wrong with him or if he's just sad he lost his buddy and is tired of being moved. Going to just let it play out because honestly at this point I am absolutely clueless

Everything i read for sitting in corner, losing some color and breathing a bit heavy is about water quality. However:

Salinity - 1.024
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <5ppmw

Diatoms bloomed and I know tank is cycled. I have in a 30g biocube with protein skimmer and a 100 GPH power head.