You can never skim to much .... I think not

reefnewbie54321

In Memoriam
I am in the process of picking a skimmer and I am getting recommended skimmers that are rated for heavy stocked 400g tanks for my 120g. I always ask why such a large skimmer would want to be incorporated and always got the same answer...

"You can never skim to much"

"The bigger the skimmer the healthier the tank"

"Big Skimmer = Low Nutrients = Good Tank"

Theres a million other ways I have herd it been said but I beg to differ. I am ready for a fight so here it comes,

YOU CAN OVERSKIM

"Myth 17: You can never skim a tank too much.

Yes, you can. Far too many works have dealt with various aspects of protein skimming. I still feel there is too little information on exactly what, how much, and how effectively foam fractionation affects various components of the water column of reef aquaria. For the most part, protein skimmers are employed as water quality control devices to maintain low levels of organic and some inorganic materials, notably compounds containing nitrogen and phosphorous commonly linked to degraded water quality not conducive to the growth of many reef species such as corals. Whether or not they are used secondarily for other questionably useful purposes such as elimination of toxins or increasing oxygenation is another matter. My point is that once nutrient levels are low and conducive to a healthy aquarium, and until other secondarily important aspects of protein skimming are experimentally validated and quantified, any skimming over that required to maintain low levels of organic and inorganic pollutants is overskimming. Why? Because if the water is cleared of those things that are detrimental, it is also likely to be equally cleared of things that are beneficial. Given the now well-recognized limitations of providing large amounts of food without a corresponding decrease in water quality, skimming as little as possible while maintaining the aforementioned high water quality is only pragmatic. There is no advantage to a constantly stripped water column in all but a very few specialized situations.

If I were asked what a solution might be, I would propose the following. Use the most efficient skimmer possible and one that is capable of maintaining high water quality when used constantly. Assuming that they do provide some amount of oxygenation, even if minimal, I would then begin shutting off the skimmer during the day for a few hours and measure tank condition visually and through testing for several weeks. If water quality is maintained, I would increase the number of hours the skimmer is off, and wait again, continuing this process until the maximum number of hours is reached where water quality and tank health remains the same without the use of the skimmer. I would also opt for daylight discontinuance since oxygen is less of a problem when photosynthesis is occurring, and since most aquarists tend to feed fish and other products like phytoplankton during the day. This way, residual foods will not be removed for at least several hours. Some aquarists may even find that they can discontinue skimmer usage entirely (I think this likely, especially if activated carbon is employed).

Potential: Minimal to serious. In the best cases, continuous skimming results in relatively healthy tanks that are considered successful by most standards. In the worst cases, organisms perish because of the lack of available foods in the water column. In most cases, the results are a "sterile" looking tank with little alive but corals and coralline algae. Corals tend to appear weakened and, for lack of a more accurate description, not robust.

Distribution: Extremely widespread. There are many who employ alternate means of tank filtration, and these are usually the same people who appreciate the obvious differences in allowing more material to remain in the water column without compromising water quality. Foam fractionation use is both desirable and extremely widely employed, but as with other things should be employed properly and with a judicious purpose." - Eric Borneman

Give me all you got ... I can take it

Prove me wrong...
 
Interesting take on things, but me personally, I would rather overskim a little than underskim. I wouldn't rely solely on a protein skimmer as my ONLY means of filtration.

Thats just my $.01, I'll add my other $.01 tomorrow.
 
"Given the now well-recognized limitations of providing large amounts of food without a corresponding decrease in water quality, skimming as little as possible while maintaining the aforementioned high water quality is only pragmatic. There is no advantage to a constantly stripped water column in all but a very few specialized situations."

Thats a VERY large assumption going on there. Skimming heavy allows me to feed HUGE quantities of food without seeing any decrease in water quality.

I'd rather have a ton of food go into my tank, and get skimmed out, than have to worry about feeding too much and getting algae. Everything likes food. I'd rather feed and extract.

I feed 4-5 times a day. I feed large quantities of flake, frozen, etc. I dont wash my frozen. I have NO algae. NONE.


I hear about people who feed 2-3 times a week. Thats just silly. The reef is constantly awash with food.
 
I agree, I think overskimming and overfeeding is a fantastic formula - especially for SPS tanks. I have seen colors fade when I'm super nutrient poor, then improve with some of the "coral foods". In just a couple weeks I've been without a skimmer and noticed browning/dulling of colors. So I'd prefer to overskim and add as necessary.
 
Skim like a mad man, and if you think your water is too clean (????), turn off your skimmer for a day. Think about it like that and you'll save yourself a ton of cash when you realised you brought a knife to a gun fight.
 
I think a lot of the reason you are getting recommended such large skimmers for your 120 is because people are erring on the side of caution with their advice. They're giving you a recommendation that will allow you to keep a large fish load along with your corals if you ever decided you wanted to. better to have too big a skimmer and only use it a few days a week than have too small of one and have wasted your money.
 
I also feed 4 or more times a day, usually three of four cubes of mixed frozen along with just as much mysis, some cyclopeeze, a few sheets of nori, some flake, oyster eggs a couple of times per week... etc. my phosphates are 0 with the deltec test kit, and i've only changed 20 gallons in a 180 in the last two months. maybe with mostly softies you can skim too much, but i have a few leathers and they are growing, xenia growing like mad (a great nutrient export imo), tons of zoas.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7807498#post7807498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
"Given the now well-recognized limitations of providing large amounts of food without a corresponding decrease in water quality, skimming as little as possible while maintaining the aforementioned high water quality is only pragmatic. There is no advantage to a constantly stripped water column in all but a very few specialized situations."

Thats a VERY large assumption going on there. Skimming heavy allows me to feed HUGE quantities of food without seeing any decrease in water quality.

I'd rather have a ton of food go into my tank, and get skimmed out, than have to worry about feeding too much and getting algae. Everything likes food. I'd rather feed and extract.

I feed 4-5 times a day. I feed large quantities of flake, frozen, etc. I dont wash my frozen. I have NO algae. NONE.


I hear about people who feed 2-3 times a week. Thats just silly. The reef is constantly awash with food.


Well put, Rich.


I will agree with reefnewb insofar as I think you can have a beautiful aquarium without a skimmer, or with an undersized one, as I have had, and seen examples of both. However, saying that "In most cases, the results are a "sterile" looking tank with little alive but corals and coralline algae. Corals tend to appear weakened and, for lack of a more accurate description, not robust." I think is an uninformed opinion, and I don't care whose quote it is. Perhaps in some cases, but to say in most cases? Incredible.

I see in your signature that you are a proud owner of an ATScrubber. According to Dr Adey, you won't need any skimmer at all with this system, yet you shop for one still? Not trying to be a smarta$$, just haven't seen much success with these scrubbers personally.
 
Interesting read, I have no skimmer on my 180 that has a water volume of 600 gallons. If you have not already seem my post, I started the tank skimmerless then added a skimmer 4 years in, then upgraded to a larger one as recommended just like you are getting. everything looked ok but I started getting red slime algae with bubbles. I started feeding Phytoplankton everyday and started to see more growth of creatures on my live rock, before it was just coralline. Then I took off the skimmer and went skimmerless again, that is all I changed, still the twice a day feedings and once a month water change. My acropora corals have started to change colors. One when from tan with baby blue tips to tanish green with baby blue and purple tips. I also now see way more polyps out on the corals. Skimmerless tanks has a less sterile look to them
 
I'd love to figure out what this "sterile" look means, exactly.

You mean swaying polyps, thriving corals, and happy fish? Cause I'll fill my ASM g-2's cup in less than 2 days, and that's what im seeing.
 
Never heard of an SPS tank that went downhill due to too much skimming.

Have heard of soft tank inhabitants not growing well in low nutrient tanks.
 
Growing on my rock? besides the corraline, the corals are ;)

I mean, that's what I'd want to see when I look at a tank, anyways; corals. Not rock or algae.
 
i have many different pods, worms, feather dusters,sponges of many different types in the dark areas, coralline everywhere, tens of thousands of mini brittle stars, stomatellas breeding and exploding in population. that's what is on my sterile rock:

tankfrontleft.jpg
 
Marinelife - interestingly enough whenever I am withOUT a skimmer I get the slimey/bubbley cyano. I have it now since I took my skimmer down and its buggin the crap outta me. Your findings are really interesting. Also since I took it offline I'm developing some bryopsis and a little bit of hair algae. Its really discouraging.
 
King- That is what is meant by sterile just coralline algae (atleast by me) I am not saying algae growing between corals either, but some sponge, feather duster, and other creatures makes a tank look more natural
 
Great thread.


I have not been skimming my 77 reef for the past three months. I feed a lot too. I have absolutely no algae anywhere. My filtration is simply a large healthy refugium.

I just bought a new octopus recirc skimmer rated to 185 gallons, I will note the changes I see after the skimmer breaks in and does its job.
 
I have a MR-2 driven by a GenX PCX 55, this skimmer is rated to 300 gallons, and I run it wet on a 50 gallon tank with a 10 gallon sump and No fish.

I did hit a point when I made my tank too clean, and coral started to lighten up, so I turned down the skimmer a bit and fed.

The advantage to having a huge skimmer is you can always skim less by reducing the bubbles, but it is far harder to skim more from a really junky skimmer.

HTH,
Whiskey
 
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