Zoa Feeding

juice454

New member
Just bought my first crop of Zoa's. Was wondering what everyone's take is on feeding (frequency, amount, type, etc.).

I bought some PhytoFeast to start out. Instructions read to just drop a few drops in daily, but am I better off using a turkey baster to target feed them? Or is that disturbing?

Tips appreciated.
 
There has always been a lot of talk about feeding zoas, but I truely question the wisdom in that. Specifically Zoanthids (excluding the big palythoa types) zoanthids never seem to eat. They might, but I have never fed my zoas and they always seem to grow very well after a short while.

To me, feeding your corals (besides non-photosynthetic corals) is a waste of time and money. Plus, the down side is if you ever stop feeding you will likely see a decline in your corals health due to starvation. Or if you continue, eventually the tank will become oversaturated with nutrients and become an algae farm.

I know a lot of experts say that it is wise to feed your corals, but with all the money we spend on trying to keep our water clean, wouldn't that just go against the original wisdom?

Anyway, if you're going to feed, target feed. Use a baster and turn off your pumps when you do it. You will notice that the bristle worms and pods will eat most of it. If you begin to notice algae or diatoms popping up, stop. Also be prepared to deal with Cyano.

Sorry to be a downer, I wish you the best.:)
 
I would argue this:
There has always been a lot of talk about feeding zoas, but I truely question the wisdom in that. Specifically Zoanthids (excluding the big palythoa types) zoanthids never seem to eat. They might, but I have never fed my zoas and they always seem to grow very well after a short while.

To me, feeding your corals (besides non-photosynthetic corals) is a waste of time and money. Plus, the down side is if you ever stop feeding you will likely see a decline in your corals health due to starvation. Or if you continue, eventually the tank will become oversaturated with nutrients and become an algae farm.

I know a lot of experts say that it is wise to feed your corals, but with all the money we spend on trying to keep our water clean, wouldn't that just go against the original wisdom?

Anyway, if you're going to feed, target feed. Use a baster and turn off your pumps when you do it. You will notice that the bristle worms and pods will eat most of it. If you begin to notice algae or diatoms popping up, stop. Also be prepared to deal with Cyano.

With this:
Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anenome for a least a year until your system has matured. What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago? Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable? Does it have to do with natural food availability? Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional ?<<

Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities and become functional. So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you. When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So liverock is the substrate for all these processes, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things.

Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock from a tank, or the well-treated aquacultured stuff, you have live rock that is either relatively free of anything alive to begin with, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. Some, if not most, rock exporters have a “curing process” that gets rid of a lot of the life to begin with and some of this is to keep it from dying and fouling further, but some of it would have lived if treated more carefully.

From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria, most of which is dehydrated, dead or dying, and will decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started. Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. The “starter bacteria” products give me a chuckle. Anyone with a passing knowledge of microbiology would realize that for a product to contain live bacteria in a medium that sustains it would quickly turn into a nearly solid mass of bacteria, and if the medium is such that it keeps them inactive, then the amount of bacteria in a bottle is like adding a grain of salt to the ocean compared to what is going to happen quickly in a tank with live rock in it.

However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia because there are enough bacteria present to keep up with the nitrogen being released by the dying stuff. It does not necessarily mean things are finished decomposing or that ammonia is not being produced.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds which prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts, the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. They all produce things that can be toxic â€"œ and sometimes toxic to things we want, and sometimes to things we don’t want. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going take a while.

OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Some continue on at an equilibrium level with the amount of nutrients available. And, denitrification is a slow process. Guess what else? Bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population, and yet you never test ammonia. "The water tests fine.” But, all these swings are happening. Swings of death, followed by growth until limited, then death again, then nutrients available for growth, and then limitation and death. But, every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening â€"œ even in mature tanks. Eventually, they slow and stabilize.

What's left? A tank with limited denitrification (because its slow and aerobic things happen fast) and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives during these cycles? The next fastest growing groups...cyanobacteria, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae take advantage of the nutrients (the hair algae stage). Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up because they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too, or a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.

So, the algae successions kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, produces oxygen through photosynthesis, takes up the metabolic CO2 of all the other heterotrophs you can’t see, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell because they keep dying. Maybe they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.

About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more powerheads, understands water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there instead of just asking questions (though we should all always be asking questions, if not only to ourselves!).

So, ecologically, this is successional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work.

Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they are stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.

This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.

My advice on starting tanks is to plan the habitat you want. Find the animals and corals you like. Learn about the tiny area of the reef you will try and recreate, and do not try to make a whole coral reef in one tank. Then, purchase the equipment required to emulate that environment. Then, add the appropriate types of substrate (sand, rubble, rock, whatever) and wait long after “your tank water tests fine” before you add fish and corals. First, add herbivores and maintain water quality. Water changes, carbon, skimming, alkalinity, calcium. Keep the water of high quality, even for things you can’t test for. Wait a few months and enjoy the growth that will happen. Then, add some of the species that you plan to keep….invertebrates and corals. They help create the environment, and also photosynthesize, add biodiversity, stabilize nutrients, etc. Then….then….add fish. The fish will have a reef as their new home. They won’t be stressed by this variable bouilllabaise of water and a strange habitat that keeps changing as things are added or die. They will have a stable tank with real habitat, and then the original concept you imagined will have happened.

And this:
I have a long series of articles at ReefKeeping.com on feeding corals that I will put on my article page soon.

I will say the following generalities:
1. relatively few rigorous gut analyses of coral species have been done.
2. Stony corals are almost exclusively carnivores, despite some evidence that a few have been noted to either take up or ingest phytoplankton (notably Acropora and Goniopora). However, these may have been later ejected as a pellet or not utilized. To my knowledge, no one has done radioacive tracer studies to label phyoplankton for incorporation into scleractinain biomass. Some lacking tentacle development (Mycetophyllia, Pachyseris) feed by mesenterial extrusion or ciliary action. Some Turbinaria feed using mucus webs. Scleractinian corals also utilize bacteria, dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, amino acids and particulate material (detritus and psuedoplankton (eggs, etc.) as food sources. Various stony corals have differing prey capture behaviors, with some extremely good at capturing large motile prey items, and others tending towards inactive small prey or particulates. This group includes both small and large polyped corals. The only difference is the size of the food that can be captured, and the small polyped species can and often are more dependent on prey capture than large polyped species, and it simply depends on a species by species basis. There is also significant ability for switching, in that they maximize nutrient acquisition depending on the available resources. Some feed mainly by mucus webs, some by deposition, and some by active prey capture (cnidocysyts).
3. Soft corals appear to be a mixed bag, with most utilzing particulate material, dissolved material, and bacteria as food sources. In general, they lack the type of nematocysts necessary to capture large or motile prey. Older studies suggest they do capture zooplankton, and some might to a degree, but it is probably not the most important food source for them. The early studies also failed to watch the prey long enough, and some were able to evade, escape from or actually swim out of the guts of octocorals once captured. Some soft corals (i.e Clavularia, Briareum, probably all xeniids) lack sufficient development of cnidocytes and mesenteries to have any significant prey capture response. Phytoplankton has been shown as a food source for some soft corals, though the degree to which it is a food for all is currently unknown.
4. Zoanthids can be among the most nearly autotrophic cnidarians. Some, however, are highlyheterotrophic and capture prey effectively. They feed similarly to stony corals with the exception of some (like Z. sociatus) which may feed very little on zooplankton, but depend more on other sources.
5. Corallimorphs are similar in their variation. One, A, fenestrafer, captures fish. Others show almost no prey capture response at all and likely feed mainly on particulates and bacteria swept to the mouth by ciliary action. Trumpeting and purse-string closure are both behaviors indicating a feeding response by funneling food towards the mouth. They do, however, have the largest spirocysts of all corals, and this would indicate a prey response.

Some corals feed by day and some by night, and some around the clock. I feed the fish during the day, and the food mix has a lot of coral food in it, as well. I also feed them at night, and this mix is usually largely particles too small for fish, with enough that nocturnal fish like some cardinals, get a natural timing for feeding, too. My night mix is mostly oyster eggs and cyclop-eeze.

I rarely target feed, but will turn off the skimmer during feeding, especially the very small (and expensive) foods. Some corals should be target fed...Tubastraea, for example. Large polyped corals do not necessarily benefit from big chunky foods. Just because they can swallow them does not mean its a good thing. Larger foods take more time and energy to digest, so large polyped corals might be better off exerting less energy with smaller food sources. Small polyped corals need very small food.

As to the question of feeding vs. culturing or production in the tank, live foods are always ideal as they do not degrade in the water...they are livestock, so to speak, and culturing areas where there are lots of polychaetes, mysids, amphipods, etc is a great idea - by batch culture, continuous culture or through refugia. While they may not directly feed the corals (they avoid them pretty well), their gametes and larvae do. Small polyped species tend to feed on things that are at or below the level of visual perception, so if its big enough to see, its probably too big for the smallest polyped species. Hence why blenderizing the food produces a lot of really small particles.

Now, here is an updated version of my coral food recipe that has been posted about everywhere on the planet by now.

Eric's "famous" coral food recipe

I rarely have or use all of the ingredients listed, and I don't think it will make a difference over the long term. I also use this, or a variation of it, for my homemade fish food (I leave the fish food chunkier and add various algae). Basically, I either use what is left over from the last round of food-making, or I go to a few stores and get whatever they might have at the time. I feed this to the tank day and at night, generally, and would add that for some of the ingredients, I have no idea if they have any specific role. Its just what I have done before. I have also changed a bit with some other foods now available (since I have written this last time)

I try to get a mix of particle sizes involved to accomodate not just all sizes of polyps, but also feed other inverts that filter feed.

Fresh seafood:

Some combination of the ingredients below and it makes up a relatively small percent of the total - maybe 10-20%?

shrimp (I squeeze the heads and usually use some of the "meat" in the fish food)
oysters - blend well (may have Vibriostatic properties)
various other shellfish (mussels, clams, periwinkles, etc. - the bloodier, the better...live is great (shucking is a pain but gives a good final product)
Fish roe (sometimes available at Asian markets as fresh)


Frozen foods

This makes up perhaps 20-30% of the mix - some are from an aquarium store, some from the grocer, some can be cultured

Artemia - adult
Artemia nauplii (baby brine shrimp) (enriched, if possible)
Mysid shrimp
Sea urchin roe
Flying fish roe
Rotifers
DT's oyster eggs - this is a new additions and one of my very favorite coral foods. Particle size and nutrition is excellent.

Dried Aquarium Foods

this makes up the majority of my mix - probably 40%

Golden Pearls - all sizes available, but a majority of the smallest size
Cyclop-Eeze
VibraGro
Powdered marine flake

Phytoplankton - doesn't need to be alive since the mix is frozen, but make sure it is high quality. I don't expect it does much, but just in case some of the species utilize it, great. If not, the zooplankton and other filter feeders wiil -makes up maybe 2% of mix or less?

Supplements

makes up maybe 2-5% of mix?

Super Selco ( a big squeeze)
Sea Green Vitamin supplements - various brands, powdered, from Whole Foods market

I have also been known to add Echinacea capsules, the skins of colorful vegetables and fruits, various pigment complexes of carotenoids, etc. and/or antioxidants from Whole Foods market. I am also now adding SeaVive, a beta glucan/vitamin C and protein complex (all natural) into my fish foods, which due to its powdered form, also will potentially be a coral food.

In terms of preparation, I puree the solid seaoods, mix in the frozen thawed ingredients, soak the dry/powdered ingredients in the wet ingredients, combine them all together and let them sit for a few hours, and then freeze them into small flats in ziplocs in the freezer. I usually wind up with about 50.00 in foods per batch and make about a gallon or so of food that lasts a couple or more months.

If I have live cultures going, I add them when its time. I have no qualms about making the tank absolutely cloudy with food, though do not feed this heavily all the time. I try to feed every night, but miss some nights. Some nights I give them the holy grail and just pour in food so it resides for at least an hour, and then skim the rest out.

I'll leave this thread open, but stuck, to invite comments and questions.
 
My point...

Not a downer at all, good advice and point of view.

...is dont take the advise of one person with out passing it through the sanity test first. I am now thinking I am going to stop fixing dinner for my wife and feeding my cat so I dont disappoint them when I come home late or have to stay out of town.

Get a few more opinions and then use your judgement. I would 'Feed the Tank' which you will notice the pods and worms will eat the food and not the polyps as previously stated. Their (the pods) reproduction will in turn 'Feed the Tank' which will be of benift for all of your inverts and corals. Yes you will see some initlal algae outbreak, but this is just the lag in your inverts catching up with your feeding. This can be minimzed by slowly increasing your feeding. You can also feed right through the algae outbreak as some of the pods will consume the algae and it will wither away on its own.

It is true that most zoanthids are photosynthetic but they should have a feeding response if the correct food is offered.

The above reading is very, very long but very well worth it.

Chris
 
clsanchez77,
That was so much reading and all great. I do understand the benefits of feeding the proper foods, but I also know the negatives of feeding proper foods.

Listen, I have talked to Eric about this I think last year, him, Dr. Ron and a few others. All have made solid cases for feeding your corals food, but the problem is it's all well and good (even novel) for the first few months, but unless you're being paid to do it or are independantly wealthy, most people do not stick with a constand feeding regmine.

I know (first hand) many well intentioned reef keepers that fed their corals and then as time waxed, their interest waned. Or life got in the way and feeding the corals was not their first priority. So their DT's goes bad and they don't have time (or money) to buy another bottle. No worries, the corals are fat, they can handle the loss of food. Truth be told, from what I have seen first hand in Aquarists tanks is the corals begin to recede and die because they are not able to support such large colonies without the regular feedings.

Or even better the entire ecosystem collapses because the food being provided is now gone and whole colonies of pods, worms and such die off and cause a spike in ammonia.

I'm sorry to set out a doomsday scenario, but I have seen this happen in my tanks and many others when feeding corals was first becoming trendy. I have found with experience that less is more.

Also, my cynical point of view... A lot of experts are very quick to point you to a product to buy. I have become skeptical over the years and go with what works.

If you decide to feed, do it sparingly. Do not fatten your corals up too much, they will expect more.

Cheers;)
 
Reef Junkie, I completely understand where you are coming from, that is why I threw in the joke about feeding my wife and my cat.

Seriously though, that is where this hobby is different from others in that it parellels raising a cat or a dog as opposed to model trains. We are caring for live beings and should provide the best possible care for our livestock. I can fully understand not being able to afford to feed the tank everyday, or twice a day, live foods. This is why I have one cat and one wife. Quite honestly, if people in Iraq ate like we did, I dont know how they would handle multiple wives.

So my answer to that scenario is:

Consider this when sizing your tank and selecting your stock; dont pick a 120, stock it with 240 corals and then not be able to properly care for them all, even thoughy financially "you can afford a 120 gallon tank". Zoanthids and mushrooms would certainly be a good choice for this as they dont require the ecosystem that say gorgonias and SPS may better require.

More importanly. Develop a feeding regime that you can sustain. Don't feed heavy in the beginning of your tank for the novelty of it if going to quit once you peak at posting your 9 month ReefCentral "Hey look at my tank thread." Sometimes I wonder if this milestone thread is peoples true purpose in entering the hobby or setting up a new tank.

Finally, don't enter the hobby if you dont plan to stay in it a long time, especially if you have an active family. Live animals will die if you redirect your attention and allow the tank to sit on the back burner.

--------

Now dont get me wrong, I am not a tree hugging hippy all into treat each animal as a human being and everything else in that extreme. But I do attibute to most of the apathy, crashing tanks and 'old tank syndrome' to enthused hobbyist getting "the biggest tank they can afford" and then a year later at its peak, the corals start killing each other as they outgrew the tank and the hobbyist looses interest to the next novelty hobby. In general this practice is not good for the long term sustainability of our hobby as a whole.

Having said all that, this is a hobby so find what works for your tank and enjoy :)

Chris
 
Chris,
No worries, I did get a kick out of your joke, but unlike us having a conversation face to face, so much gets lost or forgotton in type.;)

I agree about proper stocking and care. I have been in this hobby a little while. Went from being single to married to married with kids. I have had this latest reef tank for about 8 years, so it got grandfathered into my life decisions.

I suppose I come across as dogmatic, but in a way I'm only cutting through my experience to sum it up for a new reefer. Kind of like cliff notes for a simplistic approach to a reef tank.

Yet, I've known so many people that I've given advice, they went against it and what I predicted happened. So, they needed to learn themselves.

I am all about life experience, so maybe I am wrong in giving my advice? Nothing helps a new reefer along as well as doing it themselves.

Anyway, I'm pretty openminded about most ideaologies, but a little skeptical about expert advice.

Again, if you're new and going to feed, feed sparingly.

-----------

I am also not a tree hugger. In fact I'm a true PITA when it comes to this hobby. I'm not proud of it, but I have always made it my mission to harass experts about their findings or suggestions. Only a couple that I met I really liked and were right on.
I can tell you this, it wasn't Julian sprung. I don't think he liked his visit with the Brooklyn Aquarium Society a while back.
I guess it's like you're original post, question everything.

Good chatting with you.;)
 
No worries, I did get a kick out of your joke, but unlike us having a conversation face to face, so much gets lost or forgotton in type.

Gets people thinking though. Now I want to find the South Park quote of evolution...
 
Interesting discussions. I've been keeping corals barely 3 months with more or less success. Have yet to notice zoas actively interested in feeding injected food from the water column. That is not to say they don't. It just may be happening indirectly as food being translated into various edible nutrient components attractive to zoos. As a way to ballance both the needs of biological ballance and reef growth I feed only every second day. I believe adding too much nutrient can be as bad as too little. Unless, of course, if you happen to have the necessary bio-load to absorb them before they become disruptive. Then again, I can see how a well matured & diversified reef tank can become self sufficient as long as the tank is not over stocked.
 
Some zoas do show a positive feeding response to zoas, but it's usually hit or miss.
Other corals like Leathers, SPS, LPS usually always show a 100% feeding response if the food is the right size. Some LPS will eat about anything, including whole silversides.

You're right plandy, a well established reef tank with high levels of stock and an active ecosystem of pods and worms will respond very positively to feeding. The only problem is if you feed excessively and then begin to cut back, you can starve your tank.
Usually it leads to a negative domino effect.

That's why if you feed, you should feed consistently. You also have to take into account that these colonies will grow and require more food. So the conundrum here is how far are you willing to go? Will you match the food demand or keep it restricted to help keep your tank from overgrowing?

Be careful for what you wish for.

Here is something to ponder. This news article is a "quantum" leap from feeding corals. It's about restrictive feeding results for mamals and it's benefits. Maybe there is a connection?
http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/s267504.htm
 
Bill,

Thanks for sharing your very interesting perspective on reef keeping. From your gallery I can tell you have a fantastic selection of corals, in superb colors and condition.

Regards,
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8516520#post8516520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clsanchez77
Crap, you have canibal zoa's.

Damn, I made a freudian slip! My evil plan to feed colorful zoas to not so colorful zoas and turn their bland colors into interesting colors is foiled! :mad2:

I would've got away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids!
 
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