10,000 Just for a Reef Tank? Does Cost always equate quality?

asonitez

Floodicus Maximus Flooris
As a Reefer on A budget my disposable income is VERY limited with what I can do. With Every Hobby I get into which has been quite a few it would seem that there are always the practical and impractical participants of said hobby. Lately I have seen various discussions and questions that were asked about AquaTraders Lights where the replys would simply be.. "oh thats so cheap. then it must be a giant pos or will kill you and your family while you sleep." People are equating cost to quality without ever justifying it. When I was into RC car's I used stock parts, very few upgrades, stock Tx/Rx and still consistently took home 1st place trophies from the majority of my races. I was willing to utilize what I had to the best of my ability and my efforts were rewarded. Likewise it would be at those same meets that other racers would invest thousands into their vehicles and while they had considerable skill, all the best equip in the world did not help them as their cars were pushed to the limits of convention and they would ultimately have to rely on skill and maintenence to hope for a win.

Lately I've had the pleasure of visiting quite a few different homes of various reefers in and outside of jersey. Of course the mandatory "tank viewing" was always a focal point of the visit as well as the life support system that made it all tick. Too many times Have I seen tanks that took a practical approach with incredible results and tanks that had a skimmer designed for 10x their tanks size, wave makers and powerheads that seemingly took up an entire tank wall by themselves, and other equip that was inherently completely un-necessary for that particular tank. Their owners would BOAST about the costs associated with each piece of equip and frankly seeing the equip in ACTION IRL completely turned me off of ever using it.

Such was the case of Aqua-traders items. As I inherently started round-robbin checking LFS's up and down the Jersey State I started noticing that almost 90% of them utilized knock-off, non name brand, extremely simplistic lighting systems, filtration systems, uv-sterilizers, ozone generators etc with incredible results. Having the opportunity to sit down to dinner with the OWNER of a LFS for over 58 years he simply told me that no matter what the bloody hell I bought for my fish tank that NOTHING will do for me what WATER CHANGES and Maintenence on moving parts would. He told me how over the years technology took over everything and now he barely carries any synthetic products designed to remove algae, heal ich, clear water, accelerate coraline, and miracle cures. He told me straight that he used all of his products and if they did nothing for him he simply did not carry it any more. He told me that the majority of the products sold today are to try and extend the period between water changes, buffer the system to a point where it could self sustain and frankly none of it worked because there are so many things that we can't test for that will be solved with a water change and maintence on moving parts/inert surfaces. He has traveled all parts of the world and collected his own Cichlids from Tangynika and Malawai, as well as dive and recover his own anthias and tangs for his own tanks. Some of his livestock has been with him for over 20 years and he could recall the day that he acquired said species from a school of fish for his own tank.

The short and tall of this is that You don't NEED to spend ridiculous amounts of money on items toted as "quality" based on the already predisposed positions of people that bought said item because of others predisposed ideal of that becasue its expensive and totes a snazzy logo it must be the holy grail of that class of items. In my own personal experience to name a few

A New Airstone in a LEE AIR driven skimmer of appropriate size out Performs a Tunze Nano and DOC 9010.
My Odyssea(Aquatraders) 24" 36" and 48" halide fixtures after replacing the bulbs to get the color I desired
is still ticking 1 year later when for my fathers 48" Coralife- Current Orbit- Hamilton Tech and Aqua all changed within a year have A) Ceased to Function B) Burned out Ballasts C) Proved too costly to fix or replace parts D) Just proved to be a waste of money because the hype generated about that product was all unfounded fanboys looking for a reason to stroke their visa e-(sinep) spell it backward....

Ppl are amazed to this day that all my rocks are purple and I've never dosed Purple-Up or any coralline booster.
My corals have grown and spawned and grown and remained healthy through water changes and normal feeding of an ebay cheapo phyto supplement.
My SPS few though they are have shown continued growth with only water changes weekly and small doses of kalk etc when I remember. No calcium reactors needed, CO2 canisters. I keep my phosphates down with water changes and a ball of micro algae in a eggcrate case right before my return to my fish tank. No expensive reactors or media to purchase.

I use a Aqua-Euro USA 250 skimmer that I got for 216 dollars shipped and it is pulling out more gunk that I can keep up with changing/emptying the skimmate daily. Just because something is expensive dosen't mean its quality. It just means the manufacturer needs to sell it at that price to make a profit marginal to their costs. The fact that something appears better because its expensive is an ideal spurred on by the media and consumerists that continually feed the merchants that take advantage of the fact that the media is holding their item in such accord that it must be the "bently" of that particualar item. I bet if you all found out that All the movie stars and rich folk used odyssea fixtures in their multi-million dollar homes you would definately re-c0nsider. In either case reefers will continually to hold the words of other reefers as law or go with the majority. Few will actually attempt to break tradition and experience something on their own. But its prudent to know that it was the people that broke tradition, tried things for themselves and challenged the validity of manufacturer claims that have gone on to do great things and pioneer new advances in the hobby. Don't knock the Aquatraders unit until you try it.

-Aso
 
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J/K...

All very good points!
 
I like what your have written asonitez.

I think that part of what drives the purchase of expensive, name-brand equipment is that these items have become status symbols. A second component is that someone new to the hobby thinks that an expensive, well recognized component compensates for their inexperience.

At the end of the day, if you understand the effect that you're trying to achieve, you can get it done without buying unnecessarily expensive items.
 
At the end of the day, I think what ever works for you as an individual is what works. Cost does not equate quality or life of a product.

I collect watches and cannot tell you the number of people who say a Times is better than a Rolex, but in the end it is all preference. I applaud those who can build anything that works on a budget. I think the more you know, the cheaper the hobby gets.
 
I agree on allot of those points. One reason to oin this hobby that you see high prices on some stuff is the manufacture is trying to fool you that it is high quality. They put a high price on it because of what you said some people do beleive that price = quality and they are trying to fool some people.

But I do not agree with this statement.
A New Airstone in a LEE AIR driven skimmer of appropriate size out Performs a Tunze Nano and DOC 9010.
My Odyssea(Aquatraders) 24" 36" and 48" halide fixtures after replacing the bulbs to get the color I desired

Lee will not out perform a tunze not even my nano but Air driven skimmers are not bad they just require maintenance and some money to change out the wood air stones and they are not cheap and in the long run could end up costing more.

Odyssea is junk. They seem ok at first but they do not last. I have owned one and so did some of my friends and we all though, hey nice and cheap price and not badly built. . All of us have dead fixture due too ballast failure. I know some people will say well I have had mine a year or a year and a half and no faliure. Well if that makes quaility too you than oh well. My PFO fixture I had 7 years and was going strong when I sold it and it is still going strong.

Dave
 
Aye - With regards to the Lee skimmer I wanted to use it as an example because that was MY personal experience. Even after setting and monitoring the take with the optimal settings and a trial test in which The tunze was left for a week taken off a week given with no skimmer to accumulate "dirt" and then used the lee. The skimmate produced by the lee was substantially greater than the Tunze. However it did require a significant amount of tuning to get it to perform optimally. For this I gave tunze the apple because it pulled out a fair amount of skimmate with less initial tinkering.

Odyssea has undergone major changes in the quality of their products. The discussion thread of the new 2007-2008 models 1 of which I have seem to be on par to what the rest of the industry is using except without UL cert. Other wise it is a solid product.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11730545#post11730545 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asonitez


Odyssea has undergone major changes in the quality of their products. The discussion thread of the new 2007-2008 models 1 of which I have seem to be on par to what the rest of the industry is using except without UL cert. Other wise it is a solid product.

And how would anyone know what long term is with these considering they are new models? what ballast do they use. Another chineese ballast?

Dave
 
If you only left the skimmer for a week no wonder you didn't like it.. My skimmer took a week just the get broke in and slimmed up for optimal performance. I agree for smaller tanks a counter current skimmer with a wood airstone and an air pump will do the job but a big tank is a different story. I have had both and no way will a LEE style skimmer beat my resirc...


As for odyssea.. I have owned the older ones, PURE JUNK... I do agree we can cut cost in this hobby by making our own equipment in certian areas and you don't always have to have the name brand to get great results.. For instance I have run my VHOs off of cheapo work horse ballast for years, never saw the need to buy the expensive ICECAP.. But to say an Odyssea light fixture is as good as a PFO, ICECAP, Nova, ETC is just a far fetched conclusion of your personal experience.. MANY have had problems with Odyssea, Me included.
 
the key to making the odyseas last longer is replacing their cooling fans with bigger and better ones IMO and getting good bulbs for them
 
I think you've made alot of very good points. However, it doesn't all boil down to water changes. A dedicated person, with an accumulation of knowledge, with a trained eye, and in constant pursuit of education, is what it requires to maintain a world class reef tank.

Besides the awesome deals I've scored on eBay, I've pieced together a lot of my components for my reef tank. Odyssea lighting aside, I think doing it yourself is the best way to save money, and assure a quality installation that will last for years. My two 250 watt metal halides cost me (bulbs, ballast, stand off, sockets, canopy to mount) $260, with is insanely cheaper than most people get away with.

Your right ASO, it doesn't have to be retarded expensive, but I don't think its safe for anybody to enter this hobby without being prepared to make that commitment. I work in an LFS and I see people compromise the health and quality of their livestock every day by not providing the appropriate accommodations for their aquariums. When were talking about wild caught precious sea life, this makes me furious. I could go nuclear on people sometimes. I'm sure you can all relate.

-Andy
 
Well-authored post. The only thing I have to disagree with is the Tunze thing as well. I know it was an illustration, but I've used four or five different brands of skimmers--CPR, Seaclone, Aquasea, etc. and my Tunze 9005 DOC easily outperformed them all. My tunze nanostream 6025s are by far the best powerheads I've ever used. So, at least in my experience, yes Tunze is somewhat pricey but you definitely get the quality that the price tag boasts IME. The service is also second to none.

I agree with a lot of your posts. I have a 10gallon nano that has virtually no equipment excepting a thermometer, stealth heater, and JBJ powerhead for flow. I use one of the cheap current t-5 HO fixtures and everything seems to be thriving. You can definitely have much success for less.
 
I agree. I was shopping around for a light for a while. Don't get me wrong, the dudes at my LFS are great. but I told them that foster&smith had a 48" T5 (216w) that I was interested in, but I'd check to see what they could offer. I think they got offended or smthn, but called the Nova Extreme a "knock off" and that it was cheap. (yea, $200 is a lot cheaper than a $500 halide fixture) and they joked about the (power usage) cost difference between the T5, and a halide setup. they may have just been tryin to make a sale.

But electricity is electricity, the name makes no difference to me

I got the T5, and I'm happy with it
 
One additional point... People seem to always recommend what they have and the more money they spent on it the more vehemently they recommend and defend it.

I will never buy gimmicky junk like ozone, uv, purple up, etc...
 
The thing I like about the hobby though is that there are a lot of choices with how you choose to run your setup. One thing that I make sure of when dealing with new players in this hobby is to make sure that I tell them the exact reason why I have a piece of equip and even then offer a cheaper or alternate solution so at least they learn there there are other ways to do things.
 
I agree that price doesn't always equal quality, but I do realize why many hobbyists spend the money that they do. I have too much money invested in livestock to worry about equipment breaking down and wiping out the entire tank. We have a lot of the equipment available today to make this a more enjoyable hobby. Successful reef tanks are more likely today because of the advances in technology and information than they were 10 years ago. We have access to opinions, product reviews, and many other resources to make the best possible choices for our tanks. Sometimes, this isn't always the cheapest option, but when it comes down to what is going to make you successful, sometimes its the better option.
 
This is a sticky subject for me. As having some experience as a reefer, I know where to cut my costs, and where money is well invested. As a LFS employee, I unfortunately too often run into people who feel they HAVE to have a fish tank, but are unwilling to spend the money on what it takes to do it properly. I consider myself very honest, and I will tell a customer when something is a rip off, and when something is a necessity. Some of the MOST expensive products have been some of the worst I have seen.

But, in the end, this is a hobby, and you have to come into KNOWING you will spend money, in my opinion. Nothing is more frustrating than customers who come into a store and go up to tanks and scan the prices. They ask about which everyone is the cheapest, and thats what they want. What the animal is and what they need is irrelevant. Its cheap, thats what matters. "The food costs 3 dollars, thats too expensive. They HAVE to have a filter? A hang on the back is 40 bucks? Thats way too much. I bought a hang on the back Aquaclear for my 90g from Petco, I am going to turn it into saltwater. That wet-dry is how much?? I don't need that, its too much." The results are dead fish and angry customers, who want the price of the fish refunded, despite the willingness to do whats proper. In this forum, stuff like this may not really need to be said, because MOST people have experience in some form. But, you can't expect everyone to build their own calcium reactors.

In the end, I just want to see people do what they need to in order to properly maintain their system. If we are going to take animals out of the wild, the least you can do is provide them with the best care possible.

I also post this as someone who purchased an Aquatrader light, who 4 months ago purchased a 48" Current Outer orbit fixture with 2-250watt HQIs and 4-54 watt T5 actinic. You may not ALWAYS have to spend more money to get something better, but sometimes there is a difference (and man was there ever).
 
Yea a couple years ago I walked into a Petco. It was sometime during the all-time high for my appreciacion of freshwater planted (dutch) tanks. The employee there and I got to talking about our freshwater planted tanks. He started telling me about his: super high-priced lights, co2 reactor, $300 canister filter, expensive substrate blah blah blah "but I can't seem to get the babys tears plant to take"...

I said, "Please man, put some thought into some of these things. The huge majority of that crap is crap. My lights were $15 at Menards. Don't have a filter. No CO2. No rediculous expensive fertilizers. I went out into the woods, dug up some rich soil and threw that under the gravel when I originally set up. Thats all it took. (showing him rich green pictures) I set this thing up right, the only maintenance is to weed this thing out when it gets way overgrown every couple months." He was dumbfounded....

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this hobby is way overrun with marketing. I think the strategy is in most cases to get em before before they know any better. Unless I completely run out of things to spend my money on, no I'm not going to spend $300 on a rubbermaid sump when an old glass aquarium does the exact same thing....
 
I am right there with you... I dont add any thing to my tank. If it is lacking anything I just increase my water change. This is the cheapest and the best way. IMO
Good points and have proven by better than 50% of the books I have read. Even the new versions mention how a simple water change per week, if the proper amount an save thousands of dollars in equip. and additives.
I do use a po4 reactor and over size skimmer. Are they "needed". NO! but they allow me to be a little lazy... :D
Lucky
 
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