120 gallon Lionfish tank

[illumnae]

Hi all, I'm in the midst of setting up a 120 gallon (4x2x2) tank with Lionfish as the main inhabitants of the tank. The tank will have a 42"x20" sump with a refugium. I will be running biopellets as well as a Bubble Magus Curve 9 with a second reactor for either Rowaphos or GAC as needed. Lighting will be via Maxspect Razor 300W (probably run at 20-30% only since Lionfish prefer dimmer lighting).

I know the biopellets, refugium and lights in a FOWLR seems overkill, but I want to keep nitrates and phosphates as low as possible, and I want a system set up such that I can switch to a SPS reef system in future if I decide FOWLR is not for me. Also, I may keep seahorses and mandarins in the refugium.

I have a few queries in relation to my setup:

1. I intend to keep at least 3 species of Lionfish in the tank: is this viable? A volitans would of course be ideal, but I don't think a 4x2x2 would do this majestic fish justice especially with the rock scaping. Aside from the volitans, I have access to antennata and dwarf fuzzy lionfish, and would like to round it off with a mombassa as well. Alternatives include dwarf zebra and fu-manchu lions. Would these species get along? A volitans would likely get large enough to eat the dwarf fuzzy lion, but since I'm not getting the volitans, would the others be alright?

2. Tankmates! The following are fish that I would like to add (not all, but these are the options I'm picking from). Those with the star are the ones I really really want. Would they be compatible? What else is suggested?

Cowfish *
Snowflake/Zebra Moray Eel *
Mystery/Carpenter Wrasse*
Goatfish
Raccon/Pearlscale/Auriga Butterflyfish
Kole/Chevron/Yellow/Powder Blue Tang
Marine Betta
Yellow Belly Regal Angel

3. CUC. What would work as clean up crew with the above potential tankmates in mind? I will have a sandbed for the eel (and maybe goatfish), so I'm thinking of nassarius snails and a sand sifting starfish for the sand bed, and large turbo snails for algae. Would emerald crabs end up as food? I would probably need a couple more algae eaters.

4. Flow. I will be purchasing 2x Jebao WP-40s for flow. Will probably run them both at 50% for the FOWLR, but buying oversized wavemakers in case of future conversion to SPS. My return pump is an Eheim 1264. Would this be sufficient flow for the tank?

Thank you all in advance for your opinions and advice!

 

[namxas]

Sorry for the long post, however, you did ask a lot of questions.

We've kept P. volitans in a 48" 100 gal (48 x 24 x 20), and if properly 'scaped, it makes a nice setup for them. However, since you're planning other tankmates, it might be a bit tight. I actually REALLY like the 48" x 24" setups...they're great to aquascape, and give the fishes more actual swimming room than a longer, narrower tank where all they can do is "pace".

We have kept several species of lionfishes on their own, as well as in mixed setups (as many as 5 dwarf and medium species), and there are usually very few problems as long as there are plenty of caves/overhangs/nooks for the fishes to retreat to when they want. Also, sometimes, males may show some aggression across species lines. For instance, our D. barberi was a real snot to our P. mombassae, the barberi was definitely a male, and we're pretty sure our mombassae is a male, based on lots of lionfish experience. The troubles that you may, or may not have is that P. mombassae and P. antennata resemble each other quite a bit (most folks can't tell the difference between them), and that may cause some trouble, but it may not.

Be careful with those wavemakers...lionfishes don't appreciate being blown around. They will "perch" more if they feel uncomfortable in the water column. I actually bumped the flow back a bit on our 100 gal. I used a LG MDQX-4SC thru a SCWD wavemaker for the mains and a 3-outlet closed loop driven by an Iwaki MD40-RLT for water movement.

Tankmates...right off the bat, remove the cowfish (will pick at the lions and others), the wrasse (will be eaten), and at least the powder blue tang (tank is way too small). The angel may be problematic, or may not (large angel species often kill lionfishes by nipping their dorsal spines and general harassment).

The SFE may become a problem when it reaches 18" or so (they become aggressive), and a small eel is easily swallowed. At any rate, you'll need to target feed it and the lionfishes about 3x a week.

Your CUC should consist of assorted snails (we like Astrea, Nerite, Trocus, and Nassarius). The only crabs we use are scarlet reef hermits (Pagueristes cadenati), as they are the least likely to bother resting fishes. Emeralds, Sallies, etc. will be eaten. The sandsifting stars generally starvem, as once your sandbed is depleted of microfauna, they have no food and slowly waste away.

Finally, this may help:

Lions, and Turkeys, and Devils, Oh My! Lionfish in the Home Aquarium

If I missed anything, let me know...lol

 

[illumnae]

Sorry for the long post, however, you did ask a lot of questions.

We've kept P. volitans in a 48" 100 gal (48 x 24 x 20), and if properly 'scaped, it makes a nice setup for them. However, since you're planning other tankmates, it might be a bit tight. I actually REALLY like the 48" x 24" setups...they're great to aquascape, and give the fishes more actual swimming room than a longer, narrower tank where all they can do is "pace".

We have kept several species of lionfishes on their own, as well as in mixed setups (as many as 5 dwarf and medium species), and there are usually very few problems as long as there are plenty of caves/overhangs/nooks for the fishes to retreat to when they want. Also, sometimes, males may show some aggression across species lines. For instance, our D. barberi was a real snot to our P. mombassae, the barberi was definitely a male, and we're pretty sure our mombassae is a male, based on lots of lionfish experience. The troubles that you may, or may not have is that P. mombassae and P. antennata resemble each other quite a bit (most folks can't tell the difference between them), and that may cause some trouble, but it may not.

Be careful with those wavemakers...lionfishes don't appreciate being blown around. They will "perch" more if they feel uncomfortable in the water column. I actually bumped the flow back a bit on our 100 gal. I used a LG MDQX-4SC thru a SCWD wavemaker for the mains and a 3-outlet closed loop driven by an Iwaki MD40-RLT for water movement.

Tankmates...right off the bat, remove the cowfish (will pick at the lions and others), the wrasse (will be eaten), and at least the powder blue tang (tank is way too small). The angel may be problematic, or may not (large angel species often kill lionfishes by nipping their dorsal spines and general harassment).

The SFE may become a problem when it reaches 18" or so (they become aggressive), and a small eel is easily swallowed. At any rate, you'll need to target feed it and the lionfishes about 3x a week.

Your CUC should consist of assorted snails (we like Astrea, Nerite, Trocus, and Nassarius). The only crabs we use are scarlet reef hermits (Pagueristes cadenati), as they are the least likely to bother resting fishes. Emeralds, Sallies, etc. will be eaten. The sandsifting stars generally starvem, as once your sandbed is depleted of microfauna, they have no food and slowly waste away.

Finally, this may help:

Lions, and Turkeys, and Devils, Oh My! Lionfish in the Home Aquarium

If I missed anything, let me know...lol

Thank you Greg, your input in greatly appreciated! I've read that site and many forum posts (I see you sharing your expertise a lot over the years!).

What if I were to trash all thoughts of tankmates and just do a lion comm? One LFS has small volitans and antennata they keep together (4" or so both species), and I'm getting importers to source yellow dwarf fuzzies and mombassae and Fu Manchus for me. Would 1 of each species work with no other tank mates? I've read in your previous posts that if the lions grew up together, it is likely that the larger lions won't regard the smaller ones as food. I will source the smallest possible volitans and he will go in last.

For the flow, I have already bought the wavemakers, but they can be turned low to 25% power so it should be fine. Just gotta make sure detritus gets swept away to keep water conditions good.

In terms of scaping, I'm eyeing Aquaroche designer ceramic "rock". They're really expensive, but many shelves and overhangs can be created with them, plus they're pest free!

 

[namxas]

IMHO/IME, you can keep mediums and dwarf species together, or larges and mediums together, but I think larges with dwarves might be an issue. Our adult volitans wasn't a particularly large specimen (12"), but upon its demise, we checked its mouth for size, and it probably could have swallowed a tennis ball.

Lionfishes don't get a "pass" just for being related, so it's all about size differential. If one fish is small enuff, it's in danger of being eaten. It may happen sooner than later, or may be awhile, or it may not happen at all. A good illustration is that I know of at least 3 full-grown female maroon clownfishes (6.5") that were eaten by adult volitans lionfishes, one incident occurred after a year an a half of peaceful cohabitation.

We have kept dwarves and mediums together successfully with little troubles. However, once our M-F pair of fuzzies began breeding, they became rather territorial towards their tankmmates, esp, the fu manchu. Also, in a different setup, our D. barberi would get a bit snotty with our P. mombassae every so often (the barberi was a brute of a fish...our largest dwarf ever)...we know the barberii was a male, and the mombassae is probably a male (based on its looks and our gut "feel"). The mombassae lives with our Inimicus stingfish, and they do very well together.

No matter how small a volitans is, they wiill still get huge within 2-3 years, and the more you feed them, the quicker they'll grow. I would, however say a lionfish reaches what we consider maturity someplace between its second and third year as opposed to the 1 year timeline that is typically "heard" in the hobby.

As for yellow fuzzies, we've found that they often don't do as well as other color morphs, but it may be due to where they're collected and the collection techniques used, as we have had very yellow specimens that seem to be doing well die mysteriously. We did finally get ahold of one that "took" and it's been a great fish for a few years now.

I'm excited to see your setup and fishes, and of course, we love talking about "things with stings", so please do post your build and fishes, and give us a shout if you have any additional questions.

 

[illumnae]

Thanks again Greg! I was coming out of reading your post #16 in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2012661 and hoping that if I put the dwarf lion in first and the volitans later, and let them grow out together, the volitans would leave the dwarf alone. However, I notice you were referring to a medium and a large lion in that post, so I guess I got my hopes far too high! :headwalls:

I guess I will give volitans a miss, and stick to the medium + dwarf lions instead. I really have my eye on the yellow dwarf fuzzy from Lembeh and am trying to source for it now. I'm located in Singapore which is right next to Indonesia where the Lembeh Straits are, so hopefully it won't be too hard! Not sure if you recall FuEL (I came across a thread on the bellus lionfish where you guys chatted way back in like 2010-2011), but I'm in the same country as him, and am trying to source the yellow dwarf fuzzy through him or his colleagues. One lion that I alsowant that doesn't seem to appear locally is the mombassae - I like the nice red colouration on it and prefer it to antennata (which I should be able to get easily).

If I'm not able to successfully obtain/keep a yellow fuzzy and a mombassae, maybe I'll go with a red fuzzy and antennata instead.

Will probably try and round off the collection with a radiata, dwarf zebra and fu manchu, which puts me at 2 medium lions and 3 dwarf lions in a 120 gallon. Waste export methods would be an oversized skimmer, refugium and a biopellet reactor. Water changes would be about 10-15% weekly.

One other question I have: The importer/exporter that currently carries volitans, antennata and one fu-manchu (in bad shape) assures me that in their experience, I would definitely eventually be able to wean lionfish onto pellets. Is this true in your experience and if so, what marine pellets would be suitable for such carnivores? I currently feed all my (freshwater) fish with NLS Thera+A formula, but given that nutritional requirements of freshwater and marine predators are different (given that freshwater predators eat freshwater fish, but marine predators cannot), I support NLS would not be a good idea?

 

[zabes]

dont worry about weaning onto pellets. just get them weaned onto fresh fish and shrimp and they will do well if not better than on the pellets. which part of SG? My wife's from there and we go over yearly or so. good choice on the mombassae, very good looking lion. I currently have a fu, mombassae and radiata and they are all doing well together.

 

[namxas]

Some lionfishes do learn to eat pellets, altho we generally don't feed pellets to our fishes unless we gutload a piece of silverside every so often. We find that assorted SW fish flesh, shrimp, squid, etc is a good diet...the more variety, the better, altho you'll find that your fishes may have a preference (salmon is the fave at our house).

In our 100, we had a fu, M-F pair of fuzzies, a P. sphex, P. radiata, Scorpaenodes caribbaeus, and a cockatoo waspfish. It was my fave tank for a several years.

 

[illumnae]

Thanks Greg and zabes,

Singapore is such a small place that we are all one single part zabes! :celeb1:

Your experiences sound really exciting and I am really looking forward to this lionfish comm!

I spent the day sourcing around and managed to source the following from local suppliers:

Yellow dwarf fuzzy (woohoo!!!!!!)
Fu Manchu
Dwarf Zebra
Radiata
Antennata

Mombassae still remains elusive however, and I have yet to enquire about barberi. This is looking promising!! :inlove:

 

[namxas]

P. mombassae is an more of an Indo-West Pacific/African species, FWIW, so you may have a bit of trouble getting it. The other thing is that it is almost always mis-ID'd as P. antennata.

 

[nirvanaandtool]

Personally I'd think you would be fine with a Goatfish with that group of lions. I wouldn't trust one with a Volie but with the smaller species, it seems like a good fit. My friend has a bicolor goat that seems to get along just fine with a Dwarf fuzzy in his quarantine tank so far. Follows the fuzzy along and cleans up the scraps the lion drops.

 

[illumnae]

Thanks Ralph, I'll consider the goatfish once the tank is established They're not hard to get around here.

My friend picked up 2 Fu Manchus for me today as he spotted them at a local retailer when he went down to buy his skimmer. They just arrived yesterday and aren't eating yet, but otherwise seem pretty healthy (he sent me a video before I confirmed that I wanted them). They are going into QT when I pick them up after work later, but I have read that they are hard to acclimate well.

Does anyone have any tips on how to treat these fish in QT (e.g. do I go with copper? hypo? Any prophylactic medication?)? I will be getting live ghost shrimp to hopefully get them to start eating as soon as possible before weaning them onto frozen food.

One supplier has placed the order for the yellow fuzzy for me, and the fishermen will start going out to hunt for one, and another supplier said he can get radiata and dwarf zebra for me hopefully next month. Antennata spotted at the retailer that the Fu Manchus were bought from as well as another retailer. Things are looking good

 

[zabes]

best way I've found is to start with tank transfer and then move on to a prazi treatment. also, I would be careful with two fu's in the same tank

 

[namxas]

zabes is right...I would not put two fu's in the same DT...they are about as intolerant as they come when it comes to conspecific aggression. IF you happen to luck into a M-F pair, you might get lucky, but since the fish isn't sexually dimorphic/dichromic, it's a crap shoot.

 

[nirvanaandtool]

I've had good success with hypo but TTM (Tank Transfer Method) seems like an easier & shorter method if you have a few small tanks you can swap back and forth. I typically follow up hypo with a treatment of prazi just like zabes.

 

[illumnae]

Thank you all for your recommendations! Unfortunately, one of the fu's did not make the trip home - it passed on in the bag That one was the larger one that showed some fin damage. The smaller one that was more active in the supplier's tank made it home alright and is now in QT. He likes to perch vertically on the sponge filter, but can also be seen flitting around when he thinks noone is looking (when the lights are off especially). I think that would be a good sign?

I've purchased ghost shrimp to be ready to try and get him to start feeding. If he just arrived at the supplier 2 days ago, and was put into QT last night, when would be reasonable to start trying to get him to eat the shrimp?

Also, aside from prazi I also have in my medicine stash metro and flubendazole (I also have fenbendazole). These are essential dewormers in freshwater, but I'm not so sure if they're safe to use for saltwater. Should I stick with prazi only, or can I administer the entire batch of dewormers?

 

[nirvanaandtool]

I know Metro is safe in saltwater but not sure on the other two. Look it up and check.

Glad to hear the second Fu made it in ok. That's good news. I'd say try tonight on feeding him.

 

[illumnae]

He ate a shrimp about 1/3 his body length, ignored a dead shrimp then ignored another live one. Guess he got full on the first one. He's always perched vertically on the base of the sponge filter now, making me always having to take a second look to make sure he's not dead!

 

[nirvanaandtool]

That's a good start.
If you manage to find smaller ghosts, he may take more than 1.

 

[illumnae]

The Fu Manchu is taking 1 ghost shrimp a day now. Trying to choose the smaller ones for it.

A number of lionfish came in this week and I took a trip to a few retailers to see what's available. I need some help with id if possible. Apologies in advance as most of the pictures were taken in bad light with my mobile phone.

1. Pterois mombassae/antennata? This piece came in a Indo-Pacific shipment with other obvious Pterois antennata. It looked very different from the rest. While the others were dark brown, this was reddish orange. While the others had few spots on their pectorals, this had many.

2. Pterois mombassae/antennata? This piece came in as Pterois antennata but is also reddish orange and not brown. Has more spots than others in the batch, but not as many as the one above, not really enough to definitively say more than 3 rows.

3. Dendrochirus zebra? This came in as Dendrochirus zebra - just confirming the id.

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[jarrod13]

The first one is a mombassae

The second does appear to be an antennata

And the last is a zebra