1200g Reef with some sick fish

[Nanook]

I have a 375 and 470g pair of tanks on a common sump with a 150g fuge, total about 1200 gallons. In the 375g tank I have a large sailfin tang, large orange shoulder tang (raised from a baby), small purple and small kole tang. I also have a few clownfish and a small school of squareback anthias.

I've had some degree of fish erosions on the face of my sailfin and orange shoulder tang for greater than a year, but since the fish have been behaving normally, didn't think much about it. About 3 months ago I lost a few fish within a couple days for no reason I could find (CBB, large male anthia, small dispar).

Looking at the fish in the 375g tank, there is one anthias with a sore-bump coming off its bottom lip. Three of the four tangs are getting worsening erosion type sores on their face areas. In my 470g tank, my yellow tang and mag rabbitfish have fins that are chewed up looking, but I have never seen anyone bullying them. Even a large female maroon clownfish almost died. The clown got bumpy looking and was having a hard time breathing a month ago, it looks just about back to normal now. I haven't added fish for quite a while.

I also have many fish that are healthy looking in appearance in this system as well. I guess I am looking for a diagnosis and suggestions for curing these guys.

My water parameters are:

ph=8.2-8.4
sg=1.025-1.026 by refractometer
temp=76-79
calcium=450
mag=1350
nitrate 10-20
phosphate 0.05-0.09
nitrite=0
ammonia=0

I feed NLS pellets three sizes daily, I feed mysis shrimp by Hikari and mysis shrimp the large size by Hikari. I feed some green flakes every day (Forumula II). I feed a bit of Formula I every day or two. I also throw some spirulina in the tank every day or two. I usually feed green nori a couple times a week.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[rkelman]

With the varying symptoms my best guess would be bacterial infections. Maybe you should be considering running a UV on the system. Its alot of money but I'm not sure how you would get it under control in a system that big without it. What kind of filtration do you have on the system?

 

[Nanook]

I have about 800-900lbs of liverock, a huge protein skimmer, shallow sand bed, 150g refugium with macroalgae, large reactor for running granulated active carbon and water change monthly of 20%.

 

[rkelman]

Ok. Keep in mind I don't have experience with big systems. You are below the recommended amount of live rock of 1 - 1.5lbs per gallon. The shallow sand bed is arguably doing more harm than good. I have a shallow sand bed too. Now on the other hand from the sounds of it you have way less stock than could be kept in a system that large. Perhaps you are being over run with a bacteria of some sort. Once they take hold they can be a real pain to get rid of ( this I do have alot of experience with ) Uv cured my problem I wish I had done it a long time ago.

 

[Nanook]

I did run vodka dosing in this sytem for about 9 months, so who knows what kind of bacteria I grew. I have been off the vodka and using a sulphur denitrator for several months.

Any guidelines on sizing a UV sterilizer?

 

[rkelman]

I'm not sure I'd blame vodka. I dose vodka without issues. I would think (going by the size of my sterilizer) you would need about 160w of UV. I use a Lifegard Aquatics QL-40 on my system and its rated for 300gallons. The QL-160 would be sized adequately for your system IMO. Its a large purchase and I would definitely talk to someone at Lifegard before making it. Don't forget you need to keep bulbs in these things too every year. I haven't seen the 160 on sale anywhere but the 120 is $640 at drsfostersmith.com. I would guess the 160 might be $800+ I'm not sure what other options are out there but I love the quality and simplicity of my Lifegard UV. I hate recommending something so expensive on a guess though. Hopefully someone more experienced with large systems will chime in. It couldn't hurt to post in the large systems forum.

 

[Nanook]

I've read on UV filters in the past and just did a refresher course. They are good at killing some of the stuff that goes through them, but they won't kill everything because not all of the water goes through them. They do look to be useful for water clarity and reducing levels of bacteria in heavily fed/stocked systems.

Since my fish are already exhibiting signs of illness, I don't think the UV will be the ticket. Not to mention they are pretty expensive for my size system as well.

 

[rkelman]

You are right they dont kill everything. Nothing kills everything. The goal is to reduce the numbers so the fish can fight off whats left. They are very expensive for that large system.

 

[Nanook]

Yes, I have priced them and they are very expensive for my system.

 

[RegalAngel]

I've had some degree of fish erosions on the face of my sailfin and orange shoulder tang for greater than a year, but since the fish have been behaving normally, didn't think much about it.

I have about 800-900lbs of liverock, a huge protein skimmer, shallow sand bed, 150g refugium with macroalgae, large reactor for running granulated active carbon and water change monthly of 20%.

HLLE....

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

I have a very large amount of GAC in my 300g tank, and my Purple Tang and a couple of angels have face bleaching.

 

[Nanook]

Thanks, RegalAngel

So, according to Calfo, it could be anything

I might try adding some Selcon to my feedings to see if that helps. My surgeonfish definitely have HLLE and a couple fish have something else. I might need to step up on my water changes to see if that helps. I usually change 20% a month, but might increase that to 30% or 40% to see if that makes a difference.

 

[Jacob D]

My first thought was also HLLE and probably secondary bacterial infections. You really can't dose anything into your system to take care of the bacteria because it will wipe out your biofilter. You can medicate the food. Seachem makes a product called Focus which will bind meds to food, but your fish may not take the food which I have found to be the case sometimes. I have also tried using fish oil as a binder which works better with regard to the fish eating it. Tetracycline would probably be a good bet for multiple unknown bacterial infections since it is broad spectrum.

Unfortunately I have never found a good source of info for use of antibiotics with fish - especially orally. Dosages are usually given relative to volume of water, which is fine for a bath or QT but not a DT treatment. Additionally you need to know if the antibiotics dosages are given for freshwater or saltwater since calcium will inactivate many antibiotics.

I hope something here helps, good luck with your treatment and please keep us posted.

 

[rwb500]

just throwin' this out there-

there's gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria. erythromycin only kills one of the types (i forget which one). but the nitrifying bacteria are NOT killed by erythromycin. thats why people can get away with using erythromycin to eradicate red slime (cyanobacteria). ive done it myself and boy does it work. with no noticeable effects on my nitrification either. but that was in a 30g...

 

[RBU1]

Well if you are going to get a uv I would get a good one. From research I have done Emperor Aquatics would fit the bill. If you call them they will go over all sizes that would meet your needs. On my 300 gallon system I would have needed a 120 watt unit to operate as designed with proper flow rates to kill ich. The UV has to be plumbed so your return line runs thru it to be most effective. In my opinion if you want to effectivly utilize UV on your 1200 gallon system you are going to need a rather large UV. Give Emperor Aquatics a call and see what they say. Keep in mind if you have an undersized UV you have to slow the water flow down causing a great increase in water temperature.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

RBU a UV will not kill ich, it will only reduce it's numbers. Ich is present in every tank n comes on every fish so there's no way to get rid of it 100%. As far as the bacterial infections they probably would be cured if u feed ur fish better n more often. Try soaking the fishes food in garlic n selcon. Fresh red gracilaria could be harvested n is the best most nutritious algae for the tangs HLLE, but dried should work fine if u can't obtain it, just soak it in the garlic/selcon. I'd do more larger WCs as well. Hope this helps. Good luck n keep us updated. :thumbsup:

 

[RBU1]

RBU a UV will not kill ich, it will only reduce it's numbers. Ich is present in every tank n comes on every fish so there's no way to get rid of it 100%. As far as the bacterial infections they probably would be cured if u feed ur fish better n more often. Try soaking the fishes food in garlic n selcon. Fresh red gracilaria could be harvested n is the best most nutritious algae for the tangs HLLE, but dried should work fine if u can't obtain it, just soak it in the garlic/selcon. I'd do more larger WCs as well. Hope this helps. Good luck n keep us updated. :thumbsup:

THink about what you just said.....

UV will not kill ich only reduce its numbers....LOL OK then how is it reducing its numbers?

UV will kill ich. DO some reasearch then make comments.

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

RBU u obviously didn't read what Nanook had to say. He said the fish are already exhibiting signs so the UV is not the route to go. Therefore this info is useless n u could have provided better advise. I think u need to do the listening. :wavehand: FWIW Nanook isn't trying to cure ich either..it looks more like a bacterial issue.

 

[RBU1]

I was not commenting totally to nanook....I was posting a rebutle to rkelman.

And apparently you did not read what nanook said because he stated the research he has done shows them useful for bacteria. PLease lets not throw stones here.

How long have you been in the hobby......Not long if you think you can't have an ich free system.....

 

[SaltwaterAdict]

A UV will not kill ich completely in ur system. It's always present n it is not a solution to eradicating ich which some people think! Feeding healthy fish food, better skimming n frequent WCs will do the trick.

 

[RBU1]

A UV will not kill ich completely in ur system. It's always present n it is not a solution to eradicating ich which some people think! Feeding healthy fish food, better skimming n frequent WCs will do the trick.

I am not going to totaly destroy nanooks thread. So I will end with this....ICH is only present if you introduce it. If you take the time to properly qt EVERYTHING you will not have ich. UNLESS you screw up somehow....I think I screwed up somehow. I have my own thread on this topic.

Sorry Nanook.....BYE!!!!!