125 Gallon 8 Month Birthday
- Thread starter GregM779
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fishman805
Premium Member
Greg,
Loved the full tank shot... I'm glad to see that you're haveing such success using the same lighting that I've got on my 150... Some folks said that I would not have enough light ... You've proved them wrong...
Loved the full tank shot... I'm glad to see that you're haveing such success using the same lighting that I've got on my 150... Some folks said that I would not have enough light ... You've proved them wrong...
reefarchitect
New member
Greg,
Here's a shot of the tank. Keep in mind it's only 2 months old.
See ya soon
Here's a shot of the tank. Keep in mind it's only 2 months old.
See ya soon
GregM779
Premium Member
hckycoz, I don't know the exact amount but here's what I know of.
I got the tank, sump, stand, protein skimmer, UV filter and pumps for $1200 used.
I bought the light seperate for about $900 new
I added the refugium, about $200 for everything including what's inside of it.
There's over 250lbs of LR in there...
About 150 lbs of LS...
Corals and fish I can't even gues but it is way up there.
fishman805, yeh the light is awesome, your LPS on the bottom will do well. Obviously if the rest of your tank is setup right the lights will be able to handle it. I love the moonlights also.
Armando, wow what a difference already, your going at Greg speed. The coralline is really taking off too. Any luck in Orlando? I just got your message. Is that a new wrasse?
I got the tank, sump, stand, protein skimmer, UV filter and pumps for $1200 used.
I bought the light seperate for about $900 new
I added the refugium, about $200 for everything including what's inside of it.
There's over 250lbs of LR in there...
About 150 lbs of LS...
Corals and fish I can't even gues but it is way up there.
fishman805, yeh the light is awesome, your LPS on the bottom will do well. Obviously if the rest of your tank is setup right the lights will be able to handle it. I love the moonlights also.
Armando, wow what a difference already, your going at Greg speed. The coralline is really taking off too. Any luck in Orlando? I just got your message. Is that a new wrasse?
reefarchitect
New member
Orlando was good,
Picked up a bright orange monti cap, a green encrusting monti. Some pink pocillipora, and some blue ridge. Also got: baby blue, solid green, orange and purple w/green skirt zoos. About 10 - 11 small frags in total. It was worth the trip.
Thanks for the compliment and I'll see you/talk to you soon.
Picked up a bright orange monti cap, a green encrusting monti. Some pink pocillipora, and some blue ridge. Also got: baby blue, solid green, orange and purple w/green skirt zoos. About 10 - 11 small frags in total. It was worth the trip.
Thanks for the compliment and I'll see you/talk to you soon.
That's it? You leave us all here to guess what it might be?
fishman805
Premium Member
FastUno said:
He really doesn't have a clue.......
FastUno
New member
Cliffhangers, gotta love them. Now, you didn't think I did that on purpose did you? Actually, I was going to PM you directly & hopefully have some sort of discussion. I was trying to avoid a feeding frenzy, but I guess if you guys twist my arm hard enough I would give in. Plus I have been really busy lately & not enough time to type all this up.
There are 2 main objectives we as reefers try to accomplish. One is to provide the necessary environment for our aquatic friends through additions (salt, CA, ALK, MG, Iodine, proper lighting...etc). The second objective is keeping the baddies out (ammonia, phosphates, N02, NO3...etc.). I am sure that most would agree that it's more difficult to control the latter.
Looking at this beautiful tank it's quite evident that things are going well. We receive reports of things growing, evidence that at least the essential elements necessary for growth have been met. So, we will not focus on this. Instead, and what is more intriguing about this situation, is why nutrient export seems to be greater than import.
Letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s briefly list the causes of Nutrient Import:
1) fair stock of corals
2) the fuge (oh yes, do you think that all the biological growth in there contributes nothing at all?) Think of all the pod skin shedding, their defecation, slews of the plants you are growing...etc).
3) the lights, a big potential contributor to imports, especially when all the necessary trace elements are present (photosynthetic life)
4) the fish & feedings (the biggest contributors to our problems).
Nutrient Export:
1) The 150LB of "live" sand. Look at the pic below, anything look familiar (is that fiji pink)? Tank was at the 5mo mark & never any problems. I barely had a cycle using that aragalive sand & it seemed to have done wonders (I think I only used a 30lb bag in there). One thing that I did notice though was that poop would sit on top of the sand, perhaps because I did not have the proper sand stirrers. When I stirred the sand myself things were great & detritus no longer appeared on the surface. I have never seen anything major in terms of multicellular life in that sand, but it must have been teaming with bacteria. I have heard of similar reports from others using this same product.
(donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t nag me about the content, I know. Also, tank was lit my 96W T5 only)
2) The 200lb of live rock. If you take notice you see that your rock is piled in this mountain, giving shelter & shade. You have a great deal of corals on top of the rocks, further shading portions of your rock work. You are using relatively low light (although enough) for relatively shorter periods of time. (this will make more sense in a bit).
3) skimmer (no comment)
4) the fuge (in particular the caulerpa, one of the best macro nutrient exporters). But I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think you have enough to make a true impact in your tank, so I wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t focus on this. If anything your system is surely benefiting from the occasional feedings bestowed from the fuge.
5) the transient carbon filtration (pollutants)
Did I miss anything?
There are 2 main objectives we as reefers try to accomplish. One is to provide the necessary environment for our aquatic friends through additions (salt, CA, ALK, MG, Iodine, proper lighting...etc). The second objective is keeping the baddies out (ammonia, phosphates, N02, NO3...etc.). I am sure that most would agree that it's more difficult to control the latter.
Looking at this beautiful tank it's quite evident that things are going well. We receive reports of things growing, evidence that at least the essential elements necessary for growth have been met. So, we will not focus on this. Instead, and what is more intriguing about this situation, is why nutrient export seems to be greater than import.
Letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s briefly list the causes of Nutrient Import:
1) fair stock of corals
2) the fuge (oh yes, do you think that all the biological growth in there contributes nothing at all?) Think of all the pod skin shedding, their defecation, slews of the plants you are growing...etc).
3) the lights, a big potential contributor to imports, especially when all the necessary trace elements are present (photosynthetic life)
4) the fish & feedings (the biggest contributors to our problems).
Nutrient Export:
1) The 150LB of "live" sand. Look at the pic below, anything look familiar (is that fiji pink)? Tank was at the 5mo mark & never any problems. I barely had a cycle using that aragalive sand & it seemed to have done wonders (I think I only used a 30lb bag in there). One thing that I did notice though was that poop would sit on top of the sand, perhaps because I did not have the proper sand stirrers. When I stirred the sand myself things were great & detritus no longer appeared on the surface. I have never seen anything major in terms of multicellular life in that sand, but it must have been teaming with bacteria. I have heard of similar reports from others using this same product.
(donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t nag me about the content, I know. Also, tank was lit my 96W T5 only)
2) The 200lb of live rock. If you take notice you see that your rock is piled in this mountain, giving shelter & shade. You have a great deal of corals on top of the rocks, further shading portions of your rock work. You are using relatively low light (although enough) for relatively shorter periods of time. (this will make more sense in a bit).
3) skimmer (no comment)
4) the fuge (in particular the caulerpa, one of the best macro nutrient exporters). But I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think you have enough to make a true impact in your tank, so I wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t focus on this. If anything your system is surely benefiting from the occasional feedings bestowed from the fuge.
5) the transient carbon filtration (pollutants)
Did I miss anything?
FastUno
New member
The answer to your success is BACTERIA. Bacteria seeded in your sand & possibly spreading to your rocks & the bacteria from your rocks (possibly spreading to your sand). Check that bag of aragalive & see what the shelf life is. That long without any light & in darkness? Your system is dominated by bacteria & not photosynthetic micro & macro life (other than your corals & macros in fuge). You have setup a perfect environment for the bacteria to dominate, consume your nutrients, & any passing photosynthetic life. The bacteria donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t produce their own fuel, it must consume it from something else that produces it or has it stored already. I think itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s the photosynthetic micro/macro life, that if left unchecked, causes the most problems. Giving off phosphates & other nutrients, this in turn leads to a cycle.
Want some more proof, then check out some of the other threads on Aragalive & see what others are saying about cycle times & life in the bag of sand. Check out the thread on rock cooking, where reefers place their rocks in a dark bin, with nothing more than water & a circulating pump, only to have the rocks come out clean. The bacteria eventually consume pretty much all visible matter.
Not satisfied with my little 26g depicted above, I at one point decided to move all the contents from the 26g into a 55g & add 384W of lights. I had less rocks per given area, less sand per area, more light per inch, & HELL all the way. The photosynthetic life took over & was not long before chaos ensued. I had implemented the exact opposite recipe of what you currently have & what I had in the smaller tank.
One thing that does not escape in this explanation, is what happens to all the bacteria then? You did say that had plenty of fish that constantly picked on your rock, did you not? You have a cleanup crew too? They probably keep them in check & the cycle continues.
Have you stirred your sand lately? When stirring the new aragalive sand, not much happens (no massive cloudsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦etc). Can you do us a favor & stir now? That will probably build up over time & overpower your friends, your foesââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦the bacteria.
Want some more proof, then check out some of the other threads on Aragalive & see what others are saying about cycle times & life in the bag of sand. Check out the thread on rock cooking, where reefers place their rocks in a dark bin, with nothing more than water & a circulating pump, only to have the rocks come out clean. The bacteria eventually consume pretty much all visible matter.
Not satisfied with my little 26g depicted above, I at one point decided to move all the contents from the 26g into a 55g & add 384W of lights. I had less rocks per given area, less sand per area, more light per inch, & HELL all the way. The photosynthetic life took over & was not long before chaos ensued. I had implemented the exact opposite recipe of what you currently have & what I had in the smaller tank.
One thing that does not escape in this explanation, is what happens to all the bacteria then? You did say that had plenty of fish that constantly picked on your rock, did you not? You have a cleanup crew too? They probably keep them in check & the cycle continues.
Have you stirred your sand lately? When stirring the new aragalive sand, not much happens (no massive cloudsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦etc). Can you do us a favor & stir now? That will probably build up over time & overpower your friends, your foesââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦the bacteria.
GregM779
Premium Member
Alright, now we have a good conversation.
I definitely agree that we can contribute some of the success back to the basics known by almost all RCers. Bacteria which comes from Live Sand and Live Rock. I don't know if it has anything to do with the amount of light being blocked by it. When I posted pics of my tank at the 3 month mark I had much less rock and coral, still a large amount of coral for that young of a tank and a very high fish load. Most said that my tank was doomed to crash....yada, yada, yada.
I am a real fan of aragalive sand and believe that does help in the grand scheme, another reason I don't think I will ever go BB. I read tons of posts of people searching for Southdown or other play sand in hopes to make it LS. I understand that it will all change but is it really worth the risk, wait, and money?
Live Rock is already known as the best filter available if put together correctly. I have a ton of rock but it is not just piled in there. I've carefully stacked it leaving room for a fish to enter the back of the tank on one side and exit 6 feet later on the other side or anywhere in between. This creates tons of flow in between my rocks and even along the sandbed in the back.
The fish are also a great contribution in themselves. My tangs, foxface, and flame angel keep the rocks immaculate making sure nothing settles or builds up. My tiger goby works on the sandbed keeping it stirred (I may add a diamond goby also, they seem to do a better job).
I definitely agree that we can contribute some of the success back to the basics known by almost all RCers. Bacteria which comes from Live Sand and Live Rock. I don't know if it has anything to do with the amount of light being blocked by it. When I posted pics of my tank at the 3 month mark I had much less rock and coral, still a large amount of coral for that young of a tank and a very high fish load. Most said that my tank was doomed to crash....yada, yada, yada.
I am a real fan of aragalive sand and believe that does help in the grand scheme, another reason I don't think I will ever go BB. I read tons of posts of people searching for Southdown or other play sand in hopes to make it LS. I understand that it will all change but is it really worth the risk, wait, and money?
Live Rock is already known as the best filter available if put together correctly. I have a ton of rock but it is not just piled in there. I've carefully stacked it leaving room for a fish to enter the back of the tank on one side and exit 6 feet later on the other side or anywhere in between. This creates tons of flow in between my rocks and even along the sandbed in the back.
The fish are also a great contribution in themselves. My tangs, foxface, and flame angel keep the rocks immaculate making sure nothing settles or builds up. My tiger goby works on the sandbed keeping it stirred (I may add a diamond goby also, they seem to do a better job).
GregM779
Premium Member
As far as the skimmer goes there is definitely room for improvement. It is able to keep up when used with the other forms of filtration but normally would not be able to keep up with a tank load like mine. I do believe that the fuge, even though it is a 10g, does make a dramatic difference at least for tank stability. Nutrient export is occuring frequently making me weed out half of the fuge about every 2 weeks. I was going to go with a 20g but there is hardly any difference in foot space so decided against it.
Maybe the tank has grown a resistance towards a hugh bioload because it gotten used to it. If you think about it, if I always have a high bioload and feed a lot then the bacteria has to be there to handle it. People who have tons of problems after their tanksitter has overfed the tank for a week, the tank has just gone through a shock.
Maybe the tank has grown a resistance towards a hugh bioload because it gotten used to it. If you think about it, if I always have a high bioload and feed a lot then the bacteria has to be there to handle it. People who have tons of problems after their tanksitter has overfed the tank for a week, the tank has just gone through a shock.
GregM779
Premium Member
As far as my lighting schedule until about 6-7 weeks ago I ran my halides 10hrs a day, the main reason for cutback was because of fellow reefers seeing better coloring with a 5-6 hr MH lighting schedule.
While we're talking about all of this we can't leave out my UV. I've heard so many bad things in posts about them but hae yet to here any actual proof. I have run mine since day one and if we contribute some of my success to bacteria then obviously it seems as though it doesn't have a downside. Also my pair of mandarins are happy meaning that it doesn't have a huge effect on pods.
The main reason that I don't do water changes is the fact that there is no real benefit to me past the 4 days that the corals look better.
While we're talking about all of this we can't leave out my UV. I've heard so many bad things in posts about them but hae yet to here any actual proof. I have run mine since day one and if we contribute some of my success to bacteria then obviously it seems as though it doesn't have a downside. Also my pair of mandarins are happy meaning that it doesn't have a huge effect on pods.
The main reason that I don't do water changes is the fact that there is no real benefit to me past the 4 days that the corals look better.
FastUno
New member
Have you added the fish all at once, or did you add the fish slowly? Reefers stress the importance of going slowly, but I have a feeling you added most of your fish at once? Did the rocks & sand come before most of the fish? I would think so.
You have a very good strategy in getting live sand & rock. In that 26g tank I did not want to order LR online, because I knew a large portion of the life would not make it. What I did instead was to acquire it from the LFS in buckets of water w/an aerator & as a result I had a SUPER FAST cycle, just a tiny blip on the radar. I could not believe it, I had success at my first real reef.
Where did you obtain your rock from, online? How was it packaged?
The UV debate is a mystery. I would think that it would be great for removing ich, disease, & pathogens, but would make the assumption that it would add to the nutrient imports. Being that things grow, duplicate, absorb energy & then after cell lysis that energy is released into the tank as nutrients. Maybe your UV is acting like a feeding machine for the bacteria, at least the ones not in your water column. The ones in the sand & on the rocks.
I noticed something very interesting in my tank recently. As you know I have a BB, with what I consider a decent amount of flow & a cleanup crew (astreas, turbo, & hermits). I am sure I can use a little more flow, but that is another story. When I first started out with my 90g BB, after transferring items from my 55g, I noticed a lot of detritus build up over time. I was forced to siphon it out every 2 weeks or so. This sort of confused me, because I was told with a good flow that the problem should not happen. It's quite understandable how it might come to be given all the crevices, rocks, & dead flow areas, & spaces for things to easily ge stuck & hidden in. Now I am noticing less & less poop appear on the BB. My tank has reached this state where I can now feed frozen mysis & squid everyday, so it seems, with no ill effects. The water looks amazingly clear & gorgeous. Part of the poop seems to disappear magically. All else being the same, the only thing I did was to start using a filter sock about 3-4 weeks ago & I added a clam.
Did you do the sand stir test for us?
You have a very good strategy in getting live sand & rock. In that 26g tank I did not want to order LR online, because I knew a large portion of the life would not make it. What I did instead was to acquire it from the LFS in buckets of water w/an aerator & as a result I had a SUPER FAST cycle, just a tiny blip on the radar. I could not believe it, I had success at my first real reef.
Where did you obtain your rock from, online? How was it packaged?
The UV debate is a mystery. I would think that it would be great for removing ich, disease, & pathogens, but would make the assumption that it would add to the nutrient imports. Being that things grow, duplicate, absorb energy & then after cell lysis that energy is released into the tank as nutrients. Maybe your UV is acting like a feeding machine for the bacteria, at least the ones not in your water column. The ones in the sand & on the rocks.
I noticed something very interesting in my tank recently. As you know I have a BB, with what I consider a decent amount of flow & a cleanup crew (astreas, turbo, & hermits). I am sure I can use a little more flow, but that is another story. When I first started out with my 90g BB, after transferring items from my 55g, I noticed a lot of detritus build up over time. I was forced to siphon it out every 2 weeks or so. This sort of confused me, because I was told with a good flow that the problem should not happen. It's quite understandable how it might come to be given all the crevices, rocks, & dead flow areas, & spaces for things to easily ge stuck & hidden in. Now I am noticing less & less poop appear on the BB. My tank has reached this state where I can now feed frozen mysis & squid everyday, so it seems, with no ill effects. The water looks amazingly clear & gorgeous. Part of the poop seems to disappear magically. All else being the same, the only thing I did was to start using a filter sock about 3-4 weeks ago & I added a clam.
Did you do the sand stir test for us?
FastUno
New member
BTW, I think the light blocking does have something to do with it. The more surface area of light you provide, the more opportunity for the photosynthesizers to take over (again given the proper elements). The less total lighted surface area, the more room for bacteria to take over & keep the former in check.
Nutrients will be released at all levels, low to high. It's a matter of which set of living things get to it first. With your setup you are giving the bacteria the advantage.
Nutrients will be released at all levels, low to high. It's a matter of which set of living things get to it first. With your setup you are giving the bacteria the advantage.
GregM779
Premium Member
Don't have much time to respond, just wanted to post that my flame angel went to the dark side today, I noticed a couple of blastos not doing too well this week, which is unheard of in my tank, yesterday I noticed a montipora digitata branch not looking too hot and today I found large blastos almost entirely eaten, another monti digi totally closed up, hopefully not eaten, a bite mark in one of my PPEs, and other LPS just don't look too happy. I hid in the kitchen and watched the tank through a mirror and sure enough not 2 minutes later he began picking away. This really sucks.
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GregM779
Premium Member
Well that was not fun. I just finished putting the reef back together after starting to catch the flame angel at about 7pm yesterday, about 10hrs total. I'm known for my fish catching skills but this guy was way too smart. I had a friend come over from my reef club to help me out and we planned to get him to one side take out some rock and use a tank seperator. He would not go on that side at all so we started taking stuff out. About 50 corals and 100lbs of rick later we were able to get him on the left side, used the seperator and took out that rock. Here's a pic of what it looked like. Sorry about the pic I had to take it with a camera phone.
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