165Gl to 1000Gl system upgrade (Long project)

[alford35]

So sorry! And want to start off by saying this post is not meant in any way to be negative just trying to trouble shoot what could have caused this if there is anything that could have been done differently with the stand as I'm about to build a very similar sized system. Although, by the looks of the cracks my guess would be that the bottom pane not being tempered was the ultimate failure along with the thickness. I think the thickness would have been fine had there not been so much force around the bulkheads which were just floating/holding the downward force of the water/weight at point loads. The point loads werent carrying all that much weight but obviously enough to cause the crack.

Just curious about the stand. How exactly was it finished? I know concrete wont be perfectly level 100% of the surface area but as long as there werent any high spots that shouldnt have been a worry. I'm more wondering about the actual structure itself. There could have been settlement issues. That is what worries me the most about doing my large build. I saw the concrete under the tile. Did you just place your support columns on top of that. That should have been fine if you did it that way- around 600-700lbs of force to each of the 6 columns which would be way less than standard concrete psi factor.

And how level was it from corner to corner? And no high spots, right? I dont think this was the cause but just curious how level it was over the entire span.

Did they offer to build you a custom stand for the location, or suggest they should build you the stand?

Did they ask you to put the foam down? If so did they say which thickness or size? I've always thought that using foam on a rimless tank was needed but never used any that was as thick as yours.

 

[alford35]

After looking back the wood that is on top of the concrete stand doesnt look really thick either. The tank was a flat bottom tank without a rim around the edge wasnt it? If so that wood would be carrying quite a load which could flex. Just a thought that I didnt notice when first looked at the pics. Tempered glass would have eliminated that I would think.

 

[dirk_brijs]

So sorry! And want to start off by saying this post is not meant in any way to be negative just trying to trouble shoot what could have caused this if there is anything that could have been done differently with the stand as I'm about to build a very similar sized system. Although, by the looks of the cracks my guess would be that the bottom pane not being tempered was the ultimate failure along with the thickness. I think the thickness would have been fine had there not been so much force around the bulkheads which were just floating/holding the downward force of the water/weight at point loads. The point loads werent carrying all that much weight but obviously enough to cause the crack.

Just curious about the stand. How exactly was it finished? I know concrete wont be perfectly level 100% of the surface area but as long as there werent any high spots that shouldnt have been a worry. I'm more wondering about the actual structure itself. There could have been settlement issues. That is what worries me the most about doing my large build. I saw the concrete under the tile. Did you just place your support columns on top of that. That should have been fine if you did it that way- around 600-700lbs of force to each of the 6 columns which would be way less than standard concrete psi factor.

And how level was it from corner to corner? And no high spots, right? I dont think this was the cause but just curious how level it was over the entire span.

Did they offer to build you a custom stand for the location, or suggest they should build you the stand?

Did they ask you to put the foam down? If so did they say which thickness or size? I've always thought that using foam on a rimless tank was needed but never used any that was as thick as yours.

Alford,
no pun taken and thanks for the advice and thoughts. I want as many opinions as possible before I start the repair to make 100% sure not making the same mistakes.
The stand was build by someone else knowing it would become a stand for a large tank. So to the naked eye it looked very level and was tested with and showed level all spots tested. If not level it must have been from corner to corner most likely.
The concrete tile on the bottom was cast around the supports. All supports including the bottom tile was enforced concrete with steel rods in it.
As for the foam.... thats for me still the general question. There seem to be a general rule here under Thai tank builders to place styrofoam under any tank? In several other forums there seem to be conflicting info on the use of it and the pros and cons of it all? So all not sure about this?
For the wood. Next time around I wont be using wood as it was advised to me not to use it anymore due to flex reason and to use granite next time around which I think will be using too.
when people say rimless or having a rim it is meant the glass strips on top or on the bottom of the tank to enforce the tank right? Cause if that is what it is then was the tank top and bottom braced yes??
anyway thanks to all of you guys trying to help out guiding me in the right direction

 

[dirk_brijs]

After looking back the wood that is on top of the concrete stand doesnt look really thick either. The tank was a flat bottom tank without a rim around the edge wasnt it? If so that wood would be carrying quite a load which could flex. Just a thought that I didnt notice when first looked at the pics. Tempered glass would have eliminated that I would think.

what you mean with a rim around the tank?
there were glass strips glued on the bottom on the tank for extra strength.... is that what you meant?

 

[alford35]

A rim on the tank is when the outer edges are not the same height as the bottom of the tank.

If it does not have a rim the bottom will be flat and the entire tank will sit on the surface equally. If it doesnt have a rim then foam will be needed but I wouldnt use the thick foam because there can be spots in it that are harder/more dense than the thinner stuff making a point load in the opposite direction. If the tank had a tempered bottom and a rim along the edge of the bottom you wouldnt need anything under the tank except where the concrete is at now/the edge only. I dont know what size tank this design stops at though. I'm sure once the tank gets to a certain size a flat bottom like yours will need to be designed but that could be in the thousands for all I know because glass thickness can just be increased with the size. Hope that makes some sense. If I were you I would try to find out if someone can put the trim/rim on a tank of your size and what size tempered glass needs to be used then have it built like that if at all possible. Here in the US the large acrylic tanks use flat bottom and wood about the size you had along with foam. If you have to go flat bottom and granite is too expensive maybe drill some holes into the concrete and add two more beams then put the wood back on there. Adding to more concrete beams would keep the wood from flexing.

As far as granite it too has some deflection/flex. If you can get some really thick granite that would be what I would use. It wont be 100% smooth surface either but if the bottom of the tank is tempered it would set directly on the granite with some thin foam no problem I would think. Most glass tanks here in the US have the bottom up about 1/4" from the outer edges making the use of foam a no no because it would push up against the glass that is free floating causing a huge load pushing up against the glass from where the edges are further down.

After the tank is off the stand take a string/thin wire and run it from corner to corner in every direction, which I'm sure the concrete finishers did anyway.

 

[alford35]

Just by looking at your pictures and having a little engineering experience I am about 80% positive that your tank failed because of the floating bulkhead without tempered glass. The weight that was on that bulkhead was around 120+lbs by quick calculation pushing straight down onto free space. There was nothing holding that glass up right there so there was two opposite forces working in one spot and only one force working in another. One force all around the hole where the wood/foam was at pushing down onto the stand and the wood/foam was pushing back creating harmony. Then where the cutout was at the weight was pushing straight down on that small space causing that 120lb point load not have any force push back on it like the tempered glass would have done. I dont know if that makes any sense to you but thats just what I can see.

The crack is right on the bulkhead correct?

When water was in the tank, did it look level? Was there the same height of water all around? Also just seems like if the tank wasnt level twisting would have occured and the seams would have failed or a side pane not the bottom.

Did you see any other tanks from the builder that were as big or bigger than yours?

It just looks like the tempered glass would have saved you but really dont know how big tanks are constructed compared to say 200 gallon tanks. And dont know how tempered glass flat bottom tanks should be sat on their stands either although I would think foam would be best since there isnt going to be anything 100% smooth when covering that much of an area.

 

[TheNamesBond]

Hi Dirk, i cannot PM as i don't have 10 posts? can you PM me your email address? Would really like some advice on who to use for tank builds here in Pattaya / Thailand

 

[dirk_brijs]

dirk_brijs@yahoo.com

 

[dirk_brijs]

one of the advantages of a large system is the back up possibilities you might have.
Had all my surviving fish stored into my intended filtration system.
Had my Fuge re-set as some sort of display tank and the intended seahorse tank is now a FOWLR tank.
here some pictures of the outside set up as it is now till repairs to the large tank are being made.

 

[dirk_brijs]

list of fish that survived the break
so my current stocklist is:
FISH
2 Hippo Tangs
1 Yellow Tang
1 Mimic Tang
4 cleaner wrasse
5 perculas
4 Barberi clownfish
1 Moorish Idol
1 Naso Tang
2 blue green chromis
5 Kauderns cardinals
1 spotted mandarin
2 orange spotted gobies
1 bi color goby
INVERTS
1 anemone crab
1 boxer shrimp
1 yellow boxing shrimp
1 fire shrimp
3 cleaner shrimp
4 tube anemones
1 heteractis magnifica
1 true carpet anemone

 

[muttley000]

Hi Dirk! Haven't been around in a few weeks, sorry to hear of your troubles! Do you have a hard time keeping your outside tanks cool enough?

 

[dirk_brijs]

Hi Dirk! Haven't been around in a few weeks, sorry to hear of your troubles! Do you have a hard time keeping your outside tanks cool enough?

Not really
the system is connected to a 12000BTU chiller which keeps the temp quit stable at around 80F
So far so good still everything
just hope it will keep ok for the next 5 months as that is when the re build will start.

 

[dirk_brijs]

OK 25 more days and I will be back home
the new tank is ordered. The main idea is not changed as the bottom will still be drilled only the glass now will be 19mm thick drilled and tempered so that (I hope) should do the trick.
So the closed loop will still be on though placement of the holes is changed slightly with especially the drain holes changed position to more central in the tank and not anymore on the outsides of the tank.
Also the stand will be completely renewed, enforced and total support surface will be made larger.
This will all happen when I get home on Jan 17th.
some drawings again from the new set up holes and closed loop.

 

[dirk_brijs]

double post

 

[dirk_brijs]

I also order the stronger sched 80 bulkheads to protect the fittings better.

 

[dirk_brijs]

also the set up of the sump and refugium will be adjusted slightly as I will have an attempt on building the new UAS (Upflow Algae Scrubber) idea that is going on right now
which is basically the same system only screen is set up inside the water and fed with air bubbles which run up the screen. So no more waterfall set up.
some drawings of the ideas that were run through the master of Algae scrubbing (SantaMonica)

the screens will be lit one sided by these lights wich will arrive in 2 days

45W of 660nm red and 640nm orange LEDs
this set up should allow me to feed about 10 x 1SqI cubes of food a day which will help me loads with the intended heavy stocking of Anthias and Chromis I am intending.

 

[dirk_brijs]

just to give you an idea on the intended plumbing set up .....?????

 

[dirk_brijs]

and some drawings of the complete set up

 

[dirk_brijs]

beautiful

thank you
I hope it will be more beautiful when done
Will have to take it slow and sure this tim e around though one time 400gallon of saltwater in my living room is enough.

 

[machodik]

great and look forward to see more to come....good luck!!!