180 stock list- would love some help

[j4mypets]

180 still in progress -Slowly but surely is going to be my new motto!!!

I really want to get my stock list in order- Please know that I am very open and welcome all suggestions- Safety and compatibility are most important to me.

My only must have fish is the Emperor, so I want to work around this fish. I would love it if people would suggest different combo possibilities to give me several ideas.

One other thing for me to keep in mind- this tank will start out FOWLR- but I do eventually want to add some corals for color. (also open and whatever works with these fish)

Ok....... here are the fish I like ( and once again, I don't intend on keeping all these fish, they are just what I like at this point)

Emperor Angel
Annularis Angel
Flame Angel
A butterfly
Morish Idol
Onyx clowns
Firefish
Blue throat trigger (least aggressive?? I really like trigs but will eliminate completely if I have too)
Porc puffer
Tang (definately not sure about them)
Green chromis ( I like the schooling)
Mandarin

Lets hear all your suggetions. THANKYOU

:rollface:

 

[karaim]

Emperor Angel - might outgrow the tank when fully adult

Butterfly - which one? Should be ok.

Moorish Idol - I would NOT get this fish. VERY hard to maintain and with puffers and triggers, the beautiful fin will be non-existent.

Onyx Clowns - mated pair ok.

Firefish - would NOT get with triggers or puffers. Very expensive lunch.

Blue Throat - one of the less aggressive ones, but I would NOT put with firefish, Mandarins, or even Chromis.

Porc Puffer - gets HUGE. Will eat all small fish. Your flamge angel (if you get one), clowns, firefish, chromis, and mandarins will all be in danger.

Tang - will work with more or less aggressive tankmates. Of course it depends on the tang.

Green Chromis - school is not a good idea. It never works out in an aquarium setting. You usually have 1 or 2 left after a while.

Mandarin - very hard to feed. You will need an ample supply of copepods. Will have a problem with puffer and possible the trigger.

Corals - the Emperor will eat most of the corals you plan to get. The puffer and trigger might also try them.

 

[karaim]

I think you first have to decide whether you want corals or not and then work around that. If you do want corals, then with an emperor angel, most corals are out of the question.

 

[j4mypets]

Thanks for the suggestions so far!!

Ok - chromis, firefish, mandarin (sad to see that go) and morish idol are out.

I really am more focused on the fish- so I will also completely give up corals. ( husband likes the corals, maybe another tank for him :lol:


Keep the comments coming

 

[j4mypets]

Thought of another question

Will the emperor or any others bother an anenome or clams?

 

[LisaD]

It's great that you are going slow and doing your research.

My first question to you, is how much do you love imperators? My second is, have you bought the 180 yet?

I have an emperor in my 210. He is gorgeous, and totally owns the tank. He is only about 6 inches right now, and will probably double in size. He is fine in the tank right now, but as he approaches full size, I think I will need a bigger tank. I may be able to get by with the tank I have, but honestly think I will need to go bigger.

If you haven't purchased your 180 yet, is there any chance you could put off your upgrade until you can find a larger tank? Either an eight foot tank, or a wider six or seven foot tank? Longer AND wider than the 180 would be best, IMO.

If your ultimate dream is to build a tank around an emperor angel, then you will be better off, financially and hassle-wise in getting a bigger tand now rather than later.

If you already have the 180, then enjoy the tank, but be aware that if you want to keep that emperor long term, you may need to eventually go wider and/or longer. A 6 x 2 x 2' tank is possible to keep an emperor in for life, but it is the minimum, for an adult emperor, in my opinion.

My 210 is stocked with:

Emperor Angel
Blueface Angel
Dogface Puffer
Blue Spotted Angel
Blue Spotted Rabbitfish
Black Tip Grouper
Zebra Moray
Brazilian Dragon Moray

I consider my tank to be stocked on the high side, even though most of the fish are not yet adult sized. I also have a very efficient (and to me, expensive) skimmer, an ATI BM 250.

If you aren't prepared to buy a really good skimmer and/or upgrade in the future, I would not put two large angels in the tank, just keep it to one. The dwarf angels, or some medium sized angels would be fine.

Some comments on the fish on your list:

Emperor Angel - wonderful fish, gets 15" max
Annularis Angel - I would eliminate one large angel
Flame Angel - should be fine
A butterfly - which one? many don't do well with rambunctious tankmates, and many are not very hardy. avoid obligate corallivores for sure.
Morish Idol - these are beautiful fish, but still very challenging, with a pretty dismal survival rate in captivity. I'd wait on this one. And study the Moorish Idol thread in Reef Fishes.
Onyx clowns - I'd get a larger species, but they may be fine.
Firefish - too small and passive for this mix, IMO
Blue throat trigger (least aggressive?? I really like trigs but will eliminate completely if I have too) - ideal for a community tank, very shy. they do need plenty of swimming space. a six foot tank is a minimum, probably need bigger at full size.
Porc puffer - good fish, but they pretty large. dogface puffers stay a bit smaller, closer to a foot.
Tang (definately not sure about them) - there are several good choices. stay away from the huge, the delicate, and the most aggressive.
Green chromis ( I like the schooling) - not sure how well they do long term - do some more reading on them, aggression can be an issue
Mandarin - only in a very mature tank with a good pod population. Hold off until you are sure your tank could support one. Not sure if any of the fish would pick on them (porc puffer, maybe?)

Good luck! This hobby is a lot of fun, but it can be a money pit.

 

[j4mypets]

LisaD- I was hoping you would chime in- I always read your comments to people.

I have been researching for over a year, and I have never read so much in my life then in the last couple months. Still way.... more
to read

The 180 is purchased, it is a 6'x2'x2' its here and starting to be plumbed. I am ordering the skimmer next- I am between the ATI 200 and a MSX

My main concern is for the fish- Emperor- I do really love that fish but if you think my tank isn't going to make for a happy home for it- I will give it up
What Angel do you think would work well? And really I guess my main fish wouldn't have to be an angel-

Oh my heart aches a little.

 

[LisaD]

I think an emperor will be quite happy in a 180 for a good long time.

I don't want to discourage you from getting an emperor. Quite a few really good keepers have had them long term in 6' tanks. I don't have the long term experience. I have about 4 years total experience keeping emperors, but haven't kept a full sized one yet. If you buy a young one, say 3-5 inches (best size for long-term survival according to both my research and experience), it will take quite a few years to approach full size. By then, it is statistically likely that you will either be so addicted to the hobby and devoted to your fish that you will be planning your 300-600 gallon system, or you will be getting out of the hobby due to a move, financial circumstances, fatigue, etc. Or if you stay with the 180 long term, and you decide you need to rehome the angel, you probably won't have trouble finding him a good home in a larger system. Just be prepared to pretty much give him away. Not that adult large angels aren't worth $$ - but if finding a good home is your first priority, you should be prepared NOT to charge top dollar. For the most part, when I need to (reluctantly) rehome fish, I give or trade them away to people I know. For the most part, to date, I have rehomed due to aggression or compatibility issues, not size.

There are some smaller angels you could look into. There are some Pomacanthus that are smaller than the emperor. Some of the Chaetodonoplus angels are gorgeous, they stay reasonale sized, and not all of them are extremely expensive. If you can get hold of it, read Scott Michael's "Angelfishes and Butterflyfishes", it's a great reference. However, tank sizes are serious underestimates, so don't go by them.

What are the one to two fish you really *want* as the centerpiece for your tank? You should have something you really love and build the rest of the tank around the requirements of your favorite few.

 

[j4mypets]

I really appreciate your input.

There were only 3 fish that I absolutely love- the Emperor, the angel that was posted a couple weeks ago, that I shortly fell in love with (can't remember the name) until I found out it was $1600, and the other is the Achilles Tang- which according to my reading should only be kept in the ocean.

You are so right about changing tank sizes, this upgrade was from a 55g! And just the other day I saw someone's tank and my husband came home and I said we need a 400gal!! He laughed at me. We just bought our final house and have the perfect set up for an inwall- with a fish room behind it approx 14'x14'

I think that I may just stay with the Emperor and like you said, just knowing that eventually he will outgrow this tank and either need to be rehomed or a larger tank.

Sooooo if I stay with the Emperor, what do you think the ideal tank mates are from my list, excluding the morish, chromis, firefish and mandarin

Thanks again for your time

 

[LisaD]

For another angel with the emperor, look up blue spotted angel. I have one, it was $80, and looks enough like that $1600 angel you fell in love with (conspicuous angel, I'll bet). Get it from DD, like I did. If you see one, jump on it, it will be gone in a flash. Another good looking relative is the black poma or black velvet angel.

Here's what I would put in the 180:

-emperor angel, changing juvenile or adult, 3-5 inches
-one smaller angel - blue spotted, black poma, Singapore angel (looks like a butterfly, can be challenging), Genicanthus
-mimic tang
-dwarf angel - flame (or coral beauty)
-blue throat trigger (possibly a pair)
-dogface puffer (black morph if you can find it)
-green chromis school (not sure it will work, but worth a try)

NOTE: It's not from your list, but I think the combination of an Australian harlequin tuskfish, black dogface puffer, mimic tang and emperor angelfish cannot be beat.

blue spotted angel

some other fish

 

[j4mypets]

YUP it was the conspicuous! At that time you had suggested to me a Blue Spotted and I really like it.

A couple of last questions- I promise.

You would go with a dogface and not the porcupine? Are they a better temperament?

Do you think a pair of the clowns would survive? Unfortunately I don't really like any of the bigger marroons or clarki's. I do really like the onyx- but will also pass on them if need be.

I have looked at the harlequin tusk, I have seen it mentioned so many times. I do like them.

Thanks again Lisa for all your help.

Oh and by the way- LOVE your new dalmation puffer- Beautiful fish!!!! Nice find.

 

[LisaD]

You would go with a dogface and not the porcupine? Are they a better temperament?

they are very different fish. the porc is more active, more of a glutton, faster moving.

the dogface is slower, mellower, almost timid.

I prefer the dogface temperament and look. also dogfaces stay smaller and are more likely to be able to stay for life in the 210. a 15 or 18" porc is massively thick, and given its activity and appetite, would need a larger tank, for sure.

I liked my porc a lot, but it harassed and killed my dogface. if I could have kept both for a while, it would have been nice. they are both nice fish, but very different...

Do you think a pair of the clowns would survive?
Unfortunately I don't really like any of the bigger marroons or clarki's. I do really like the onyx- but will also pass on them if need be.

I can't say for sure whether the onyx clowns would survive or not. they'd probably be fine. I'd put in the biggest ones you could find or grow them up in your 55 (if you keep it). I've grown up smaller fish to put in bigger tanks. I got my rabbitfish when it was around 2 inches.

I had a tank with an emperor angel, mimic tang, harlequin tusk, zebra moray, tomato clown (not a big one), Clarkii clown, and royal gramma. the smaller fish were never bothered.

 

[j4mypets]

Ok so I lie>>>>> I guess I will always have questions (HAHA)

Could I add a Lion to that list? Really just an afterthought, a lion was on my original list but I took if off because of some of the other fish that were on it, but now that most of those are gone, maybe?

 

[LisaD]

I think your clowns and chromis would be toast, honestly.

You could add a lion, but you'd probably need to remove another good sized fish or two if it was a volitan.

 

[j4mypets]

Ok he's out too-

So here it is.......

Emperor Angel
Blue Spotted Angel
Flame Angel
Black Dogface Puffer
Mimic Tang
Australian Harlequin Tusk
Pair of clowns
School of Chromis

I love it, and it is so different from where I started.

THANK YOU!

 

[LisaD]

You're welcome. I think you will be very happy with that list. Just be sure you get good quality, eating specimens, especially the angels. LA DD is always a good bet. Also, have a QT process set up. I like to QT to let a new fish adapt to captive life, and have a chance to de-stress and eat without any other fish interfering. If you have it confined in QT, you can also treat if necessary. I don't usually treat propylactically for anything unless the fish shows signs of disease. Especially if it is from LA DD. Other reliable vendors include reefhotspot (I've had good experience) and blue zoo aquatics (have heard great things). If you have a good LFS, they of course are a good source. However, many LFS I have visited have sick fish and no guarantee. Less risk from those than a reputable e-tailer, IMO. I do have one reliable LFS and most of my fish come from there and LA DD. The emperor came from reefhotspot.

 

[j4mypets]

We are very fortunate to have a LFS real close that have VERY healthy fish. They have 2 people that never leave that fish room and are constantly on top of everything. HOWEVER- you see more of the common fish then anything.

I always look at DD, and like the idea of what you see is what you're getting. I am going to go look up your other suggestion.

One of the decisions I made early on was to definately QT all livestock. Do you keep you QT tank set up, or do you just pull it out as you need it?

I thought of another question ( you are going to go running from now on when you see me posting hehe)

Is there a specific order you would add those fish is my list? I have read the Emperor should be last.

 

[LisaD]

I have a couple tanks that I use as cycled QT for apparently healthy fish. Some of them, I admit, have one or two small, hardy, long term fish in them. That's the risk I take with new fish that look healthy. I have even occasionally put sick fish in a cycled QT if I was afraid of losing it to stress, but that's not ideal. I also have several tanks and Sterilite containers that can be set up quickly as hospital tanks (for meds that can crash biological filter, and no live rock or live sand to die off).

If you have a good LFS, you can ask them to special order what you want. When I have done this with rare/delicate fish, I have arranged to be at the store when the shipment arrives, and I take the fish home in the bag (as long as it looks good). If they can order from a good supplier, such as Quality Marine, if a fish looks good in the bag, it is probably fine. They may even give you a discount because they don't have to handle the fish. My LFS gave me a 10% discount for buying "in bag". This avoids the stress of going from wholesaler to LFS tank to your tank. Put fish you purchase this way in QT immediately.

If your LFS routinely holds fish in QT and/or has a good fish health policy, you could let them keep it for a while. This reduces your risk of loss. You could put a deposit on the fish, and pick up after an agreed upon time period (a week or two). If the fish is healthy after a week or two at the LFS, it has a greater chance of surviving in your tank. I'd still QT after you get it home.

My LFS works with me on things like this because I buy regularly from them, not just fish, but food, supplies and equipment.

The order of introduction I would do:

Add first - order not important
-School of Chromis
-Pair of clowns - assuming they are onyx clowns and not maroons

Add second - order not important - all these are pretty mellow, but individual temperaments may be more or less aggressive.

-Black Dogface Puffer (if you can't find, look for dalmation or yellowish color morphs, and plain is always fine too.)
-Australian Harlequin Tusk
-Mimic Tang

Add third, emperor last, especially if not a small juvenile
-Blue Spotted Angel (QT until definitely healthy AND reliably eating)
-Flame Angel
-Emperor Angel

 

[karaim]

Good list, although I would stay away from the school of chromis (I have not heard 1 success story with this). But definately let us know how everything is going.

 

[j4mypets]

LisaD- That is a really good thought about asking our LFS to get the fish I need. I have yet to see any bad practices from them. So when I am ready to start getting these fish I will definately start there.

I am glad I asked about the order- Good to know

You know I woke up this morning with a whole new set of questions (of course)

I read in another thread you were posting in that you have some corals, which coral do these fish not harm. Our original idea was to have some corals, but if I can't- it changes everything I need for the tank, which we have been all set to buy, but now may be overkill. We were going to go with the nova extreme pro T5's. Is this not needed anymore. What do you use for lighting? And I was going to get a pump rated for at least 2300 gph. Is that too much for them? Sorry once again, but all my research to this point had been for reef. ( The fish are way more important to me!)

Once again, Thanks for all your great advice and help AND PATIENCE!


karaim- I think it is an awesome list and so completly different then where I started. I AM SUPER EXCITED. ( and still have months and months before the tank sees them but thats ok)

I will keep everyone updated with the progress.