2 Angelfish together?

[Sheol]

If you must have one, go with a Coral beauty in that size tank. C. argi are/can be absolute terrors in smaller tanks.
And yeah, that is from experience..

Matt

 

[Angel*Fish]

You can add a smaller cherub to pair yours up . There are people with spawning pairs in tanks as small as 20 gallons.

Why spawning is always touted as some kind of proof that fish are "happy" is a mystery to me

To the OP - a 30g tank is really too small for any angel. If you're going to do it anyway. What you want is to load the tank up with as much rock as seems reasonable and stack it loosely making caves and swim throughs and exposing the maximum rock surface. Centropyges generally don't want a lot of open swimming space as they do rocks to graze on and places to dive for cover.

Obviously they don't need to dive for cover in your tank - but it's hard wired into them as to needing it to "feel safe".

I'm not positive that cherubs are all that belligerent, it may be that people are just always putting them in small tanks.

 

[didz04]

It will be quite a few weeks until I get one either if its a C.argi or coral beauty but I'll give it a deep thought before I choose. Will it terrorize a goby or blenny since they tend to be in and around rocks. Ive got plenty of space to setup a new stack of rocks to the left hand side its all pretty blank there.

Once my lighting unit arrives I will be stocking it with a few soft but mainly lps corals so hopefully that will give them their own territories and place for hiding.

 

[LukFox]

Why spawning is always touted as some kind of proof that fish are "happy" is a mystery to me

I didn't mean it as happy, I meant it as two angels getting along in a similar sized tank.

As to what you assumed from my post, if they are exhibiting natural behaviors, growing normally, not showing classic stressed behavior then who is to say they are stressed or not? I've never kept two in a 30 gallon, but those that I've seen in such tanks looked very good. I know unhealthy fish will spawn, but if everything points to healthy fish, not just the spawning part, I'm not sure what else you are looking for. My cherubs never race across the 6 feet of my 155g, they don't really seem to take up much space at all. They're small, grazing fish that swim thoughtfully looking for patches to pick at, and sometimes they dart into caves. They don't appear demanding.

On your point of aggression, there are people with large tanks that still have aggression issues with cherubs. There's a guy in this very thread with a terror of a cherub in a 210 gallon tank. On the other hand, none of the cherubs in my smaller 155 gallon tank have ever been aggressive, so who can say what triggers it?

 

[Angel*Fish]

It will be quite a few weeks until I get one either if its a C.argi or coral beauty but I'll give it a deep thought before I choose. Will it terrorize a goby or blenny since they tend to be in and around rocks. Ive got plenty of space to setup a new stack of rocks to the left hand side its all pretty blank there.

Once my lighting unit arrives I will be stocking it with a few soft but mainly lps corals so hopefully that will give them their own territories and place for hiding.

Your tank won't be appropriate for an angel until it is loaded with rock. More rock = angelfish in a better "mood". The angel will use the entire tank and be boss of everyone else. I can't tell you that it will or won't be a tyrant.

Please don't put a CB in a 34. Argi's can be found really small, like one in long total. It may adjust better to the tank size if it is smaller when you get it.

I didn't mean it as happy, I meant it as two angels getting along in a similar sized tank.

As to what you assumed from my post, if they are exhibiting natural behaviors, growing normally, not showing classic stressed behavior then who is to say they are stressed or not? I've never kept two in a 30 gallon, but those that I've seen in such tanks looked very good. I know unhealthy fish will spawn, but if everything points to healthy fish, not just the spawning part, I'm not sure what else you are looking for. My cherubs never race across the 6 feet of my 155g, they don't really seem to take up much space at all. They're small, grazing fish that swim thoughtfully looking for patches to pick at, and sometimes they dart into caves. They don't appear demanding.

On your point of aggression, there are people with large tanks that still have aggression issues with cherubs. There's a guy in this very thread with a terror of a cherub in a 210 gallon tank. On the other hand, none of the cherubs in my smaller 155 gallon tank have ever been aggressive, so who can say what triggers it?

On aggression, I was making a flip remark. However there are people who have aggression issues with any of the dwarf angels.

Regarding "happy" and spawning. Almost everyone considers spawning an indication that fish are "fine". I really get tired of hearing it.

if they are exhibiting natural behaviors, growing normally, not showing classic stressed behavior then who is to say they are stressed or not

Knowing this takes an experienced eye. From what I've seen most people are unable to recognize "classic stressed behavior" in a Centropyge.

I think Snorvich said it best about tangs:
Q.: Are you kidding, my tangs are perfectly happy.
A.: They seem fine to you. That doesn't mean they are. Like all wild creatures, tangs do not show weakness until they can physically no longer hide it. On the reef, weakness singles you out for predation. Therefore, a fish may be quietly suffering without you knowing. It takes a trained eye to be able to determine if a fish is stressed or unhappy in its environment. From this thread

I don't think it's helpful to someone considering putting an angel in a 34 to bring up the point that one has seen fish "getting along" (aka not attacking each other) in an undersized tank. Normally territories in the wild are like 12 x15 feet (or more).

 

[Angel*Fish]

You can add a smaller cherub to pair yours up . There are people with spawning pairs in tanks as small as 20 gallons.

Even Scott Michael recommends at least 75g tank for a pair of cherubs.

 

[Angel*Fish]

It's pretty easy. Males are more robust looking, longer body, sharper fins, and bigger gill spines. Just wait until your cherub has some size and then pick up a smaller one. They'll figure it out, as they all start female and the dominant (larger) one becomes a male.

Wow. Fish can reach sexual maturity at very small sizes. It's notoriously hard to get juveniles or females. That may in part be because a female can become a fully functioning male in as little as two weeks.

By your "smaller fish" method, it would be very easy to wind up with two male.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I have a Jbj nano 28 gallon.. I added two angels..
The trick is to have a water cage in the water.. After a week the two angels should get use to one another.

Your tank is too small for one angel.

 

[LukFox]

Wow. Fish can reach sexual maturity at very small sizes. It's notoriously hard to get juveniles or females. That may in part be because a female can become a fully functioning male in as little as two weeks.

By your "smaller fish" method, it would be very easy to wind up with two male.

Argi comes in frequently at tiny sizes where they are clearly female, and I stated the physical differences. One more thing is the males have more yellow on the face.

On the spawning thing, yes, agreed. It irritates me too when people think their animals are perfectly healthy because they are spawning. It's not that easy or true.

I know fish try their best not to let weakness show, and I've read that very good thread. The weakness is not impossible to catch onto for people who have observed behavior enough, as stated in the thread.

I don't really want to argue the point on tank size further since your mind is made up. I don't have Scott Michael's book but I haven't seen many good tank sizes in it, though mostly the tank sizes listed were far too small.

I found this though which might be the reason in the book as well. "Keeping it (the cherub angelfish) with members of its own species is not recommended, since it can lead to serious violence. If you absolutely wish to keep it with members of its own species, use a 75 gallon / 285 litre aquarium or larger." There is no serious violence between a pair. I can see this happening with two males, but if you have two males I don't think even a 75g would save the weaker male.

I just don't agree you can't have a healthy pair of cherubs in a 34 gallon aquarium lots of rock and lots of caves. I probably wouldn't add other fish if it was me, though.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Argi comes in frequently at tiny sizes where they are clearly female, and I stated the physical differences. Are you quoting me?
One more thing is the males have more yellow on the face. That was not true with my argi pair.

On the spawning thing, yes, agreed. It irritates me too when people think their animals are perfectly healthy because they are spawning. It's not that easy or true.

I know fish try their best not to let weakness show, and I've read that very good thread. The weakness is not impossible to catch onto for people who have observed behavior enough, as stated in the thread. That's right, it's not. What is your point? Are you qualified to make that distinction?

I don't really want to argue the point on tank size further since your mind is made up. I don't have Scott Michael's book but I haven't seen many good tank sizes in it, though mostly the tank sizes listed were far too small. It's not that my "mind is made up". It's that I know what I'm talking about.

I found this though which might be the reason in the book as well. "Keeping it (the cherub angelfish) with members of its own species is not recommended, since it can lead to serious violence. If you absolutely wish to keep it with members of its own species, use a 75 gallon / 285 litre aquarium or larger." There is no serious violence between a pair. I can see this happening with two males, but if you have two males I don't think even a 75g would save the weaker male. And yet you still stand by your No. Michael specifically says 75g for a male/female pair elsewhere.

I just don't agree you can't have a healthy pair of cherubs in a 34 gallon aquarium lots of rock and lots of caves. Because you've observed it? Were they fully grown, about 3 in long? Again - just because they seem fine to you, doesn't mean they are.
I probably wouldn't add other fish if it was me, though.

And I really was curious about the phrase you used before, "classic stressed behavior". What is that exactly?

 

[tcmfish]

I kept three pairs of C. argi in standard 29 gallon tanks for a year, then I lost two pairs due to a silicone accident on a new system (my fault). The other pair I kept in a 29 gallon biocube with a neon dottyback for another year before selling them to someone locally. The male was a solid three inches before I sold them.

You can click my homepage if you want to see them.

 

[Angel*Fish]

No one here has said it not possible to do so. It's also possible to keep a tang in a small tank for a year (or longer).

Let me give you your final argument to save you the trouble: No scientific studies have been done on Centropyges in an attempt to prove one way or the other that their cortisol levels (or other stress indicators) are affected by tank size or other conditions of captivity.

Therefore, you can say that since there are no studies proving my opinion, there is no way to know. Thus you can say your opinion is just as valid as mine. That type of fallacy has a name, but I can't remember it and am not inclined to look it up at the moment.

There is your argument - it's really, really flawed. But that's it. Been there done this. I give up. Please feel free to see how far we can push the envelope and try them in a 10g.

 

[LukFox]

Yes I was quoting you as evidenced by the quote in my post????

My point on spawning was that I was AGREEING with you, and honestly I agree with pretty much every other post I see you make. I was letting you know our opinions don't entirely differ.

Classic stress behavior is hard to put in words because it is more of a seeing thing. If I really have to try it is a noted difference in breathing rate, swim patterns, how they react to other fish, how they eat, and more.

You posted when I did, I'll be done too.